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Only-virgins
15-02-08, 03:58 PM
I'm going to just talk about a really oversimplified model:

Unconscious mind (Picks up on secondary information, processes it) ---> Conscious mind (Picks up on primary info, processes it, gets info from UC mind and rationalizes it as intuition/feeling/premenition/instinct/choice)

Now, 7% of all communication is based on verbal content.. the other 93% is based on (tone of voice, speech patters, speed of talking, and non-verbal communication)

Your conscious mind, picks up on just 7% of this communication and can at times get "overloaded" and not be able to process all of it.. The only thing we can make note of that's important for this discussion is that the conscious mind will take the 7% of the info it has, and the 93% of the info it gets from the UC mind, and make a "choice".. you can then see that this 93% of info plays a large role on the feelings/intuition/premenition/instinct/etc your conscious mind will make.. at it will feel as if it make a "choice"

Maybe you said "are you ready for it?".. or maybe you said "ugh! what's that smell? did you just fart?".. it doesn't really matter THAT much.. it's not about WHAT you're saying.. but HOW you say it..

Example:

- Girl walks into an elevator; she says "Mmm.. that looks good, I could really go for some pizza right now.. lunch?" (I'm already not interested; even though she's a 7.5)

- Girl walks into an elevator; she says "A little warm outside to be all dressed like that don't you think?" (Competent flirting, she caught my interest, and she was a 7!)

What happened? It must be that I don't like women who comment on my pizza, but love women who are sarcastic and comment on my lack of clothing during a cold day.. Obviously not.. It just has to do with what else is going on here..

In the first case, the girl was nervous, uncertain if she was worthy enough, that was a turn-off and unattractive.. all of that from her eyes, facial expression, and voice.. her body was frozen in place trying hard to not expose any emotion.. the UC picked it up.. and whatever she said went through that filter.. right away.. the more she talked.. the more disinterested I grew..

In the second case, the girl was lively, confident, smiled, was chearful, her voice was content & relaxed, her body was natural, her facial expressions and eyes were expressive, warm, friendly, and natural.. And they both practically said the same thing.. but totally different reactions internally in my mind..

So when you said something to her.. maybe you sounded like you were trying too hard to hold her attention.. to keep the conversation going.. maybe you conveyed pushy-ness, needy-ness.. maybe your voice showed it was nervous, as if it didn't feel worthy to be around and talking to someone like her.. maybe not enough eye contact (not staring! just confident, relaxed, warm, expressive eye contact).. your voice (expressive, rich, soothing, commanding, powerful).. or maybe you were reacting TOO much to her..

- Tragic mistake (and it's not a guy's fault).. when you feel a girl interested in you.. you get happy, and you start reacting.. maybe you smile too much, move around too much, maybe you're a little too lively and hyper, maybe you start talking faster and your voice inflection changes completely.. when that happens.. you change the entire vibe (the vibe she was comfortable feeling, and was starting to grow attracted to)

Notice if you had a different state of mind:

- You would be doing her a favor to still be there talking to her and giving her your attention (it's not cocky, for as long as you don't make it cocky.. you can still be a friendly and warm guy and radiate this message.. people will be drawn to you because you have such value to add to the interaction, but you're not cocky, instead you're friendly and warm and give them the chance/privilage to enjoy your company.. it's your gift to them, and unless they give you some reason to stay, unless they DO/SAY something that sparks your interest, they might lose that value you provide very quickly)

When it's your state of mind, obviously the verbal content changes a little, but the change you REALLY notice is in the actions you'll make, timing, voice, speech patters, and non-verbal communication.. You also won't be looking for reasons to keep her attention.. (you don't really care!).. that's not to say that you won't keep the interaction fun.. but this is YOUR world.. and she's a pawn in it.. if you don't find her interesting or fun.. YOU lose interest and excuse yourself.. not the other way around..

This State of Mind is the most powerful DHV you can have.. and remember (not cocky "unless with 10s, they go crazy for cocky", just be warm, friendly, and fun while you have this state of mind)

- Imagine that popular girl/guy in HS or College who was "too good" to hang out with your group.. You really didn't like her/him.. you rationalized it as "ugh, what a b*tch/jerk".. and rightfully so, we're not attracted to such people, because they're not good for our own ego.. But imagine if she/he came over to your group and was friendly, open, and warm towards you.. started sharing her/his value with your group.. and as you feel yourself opening up and warming up to them.. notice how you see that same person through a different light.. That's because you're convinced of their high value, but are now given the chance/privilage to enjoy it! That's powerful, and that's what's going on when you have that State of Mind..

Also notice how this ties into Frame Control! When you have this State of Mind internalized and natural.. you automatically & instinctively control the frame and never give it up.. When you study Covert Persuasion enough, you'll reach the point where you'll have ZERO resistance to getting control of the frame.. you'll actually convince people that they are having more fun when the spotlight is shining on you.. when you are the ring-master.. and naturally.. the entire group accepts you as the leader of the group.. again.. powerful..

In your case.. I think it's natural, and it's happened to all of us when we got a little nervous around someone.. we did something stupid.. or maybe we did something "normal", but in reality, unconsciously, we projected our nervousness through our delivery.. And the way to correct that is NOT through the conscious! State of Mind is NOT conscious.. it's ALL unconscious! You can't FAKE it.. you can only BE it! (for more on that.. make a thread called "Inner Game" and i'll expand on that.. if you're willing to allow yourself to be hypnotized "as much as it's possible via online-text", i'll try and help remove some universal & personal sticking points)

I know this is another thread but hey. I know I make mistakes in the most subtle ways when talking to individuals and I'm hooked on the some of the ideas Grkscorp has mentioned. This thread is devoted thus to improving ones social interaction and I with that reasoning placed it in the "development" section of the LF forum.

Maybe we can learn how to avoid some things such as
1.) Being nervous
2.) Sounding needy
3.) wrong body gestures
4.) improper eye contact


Whatever it is I have been doing wrong I want to know. Girls approach me and than they run. How can I be something I am not, that doesn't make to much sense. If the conversation is going no where what do I do? what do I say? and how do I say it?

Just maybe this thread will be helpful to all the people making threads along the lines of "I like a girl but how do I approach her, what do I do, and what and how do I say it?"

Some questions I guess. :nerd:

Hey Grkscorp, is there anything I can actually say to this girl when I see her tomorrow to regain my interest and maybe get things moving? or is it over?

and I know everyone has some kind of experience or idea to add, so you better tell it and add it or burn in hell for all eternity haha.

GrkScorp
15-02-08, 06:08 PM
Hey Grkscorp, is there anything I can actually say to this girl when I see her tomorrow to regain my interest and maybe get things moving? or is it over?

I have to clean up and go to sleep to wake up early tomorrow.. but since this question of yours is time sensitive, i'll take the time to answer it..

Last Friday, I went to a lovely little cafe' with a good girl-friend of mine and my best guy friend.. The only reason? To hit on the hostess.. (9.5, cute, adorable, sweet, rich dark tan skin, long black hair, deep hypnotic puppy-dog brown eyes, and plump sensual lips.. i'll stop, but her body was 36-24-36).. I called her over and we told her we needed her opinion on something.. My friend Maria took over.. before you know it, she's shooting opinions, and all of a sudden Maria stops talking and offering resistance to the 9.5's POV.. the conversation starts to die out.. so I jump in to keep the fire going.. I stack onto "this girl basically got books on hypnosis to try and get him to stay with her.. can you believe it! I mean, honestly, do you believe in that magic stuff?".. the hostess said "no" and not too enthusiastically.. (she was starting to feel the pressure of being hit on).. that's when the food came.. as soon as it did, a switch flipped inside of me (this is your chance to push her away to convey non-needy-ness, and quite litterally I did).. "anyway.. i'll show you something later.. (she stood interested).. after we finish our food, i'm hungry.. (she said "excuse me?").. i'll show you later, our food is here! go! (I stick my hand out as if to tell her to leave) come back when we're finshed.. go! (she finally left)".. My friends then huddled around me shocked.. "dude, what the fcuk was that? If I was her, i'd throw the food in your face and then spit on you.. that was rude!" (honestly, it was.. it was pretty bad)..

But could it be fixed? (Mission Impossible IV)

- A waitress came over to our table and we started talking to her while the hostess watched, the waitress was having a great time (increasing the feelings of hate, and creating jealousy at the same time).. It was 2am and the hostess got dressed and ready to go home.. I got off of my seat, and as she was walking out the door, I stopped her.. "hey, look.. tell you're manager we're all really sorry for calling you over and talking while you're working.. (her: what? no it's ok "she was shocked, now she was re-rationalizing what happened, it was highly plausable and she bought it") Well, seriously.. I didn't mean to get you in any trouble, and I saw him walking over and looking your way.. and I was trying to get you to leave.. but you wouldn't budge.. (her: "laughs" no, it's ok "smiles-genuine")".. She left the place with really mixed emotions for that night.. (This Friday, i'm going back.. broke the ice, on neutral terms.. might as well)

Now, if that was put under control, I hope you notice how your situation will be easier to fix..

1. WARNING: You did something.. it HAPPENED, it's OVER.. the worst thing for you to do is say "sorry" for what happened (obviously, there are exceptions).. but this isn't one of them.. If you say "sorry" it means you've been thinking about it.. it also draws negative attention to it.. so, honestly, just forget it.. because honestly, it's very likely that she didn't feel it the same way you did, and she may have already forgot about it (after an exam!)

2. If you feel your actions were yelling the following message "i'm interested in you, I like you, I have feelings for you, I want your attention".. there's a quick fix! (that's right).. In your case, that quick fix is:

"Hey you! How was your exam? (Good/bad/blah blah).. Aww, that sucks../good!.. anyway.. I actually have to run, i'll see you around.."

That's it.. it takes less than one minute.. when asking about her exam and reacting to how it went, give her your attention, blur out the rest of the world.. but as soon as she says how it went.. react and realize that you have to get going.. blur her out.. your focus should shift to where you have to run off to "have a story in case she asks (where're you going?) make it a place that she can easily come join (lunch with friends, some place close by) and DON'T offer/invite her to join"..

Analysis?

- Problem: You think you did something to signal that you're a needy guy (DLV)..

- Quick Fix: You do something for her to rationalize as non-needy, non-desperate, non-attention seeking.. (DHV).. if she asks where you're going (interest on her part; but don't gauge/test for it).. when you have a story, and you tease her with the potential of fun/stimulation "lunch/party with friends for someone's birthday/acceptance/etc" and don't offer to invite her.. (she realizes that you're doing something fun.. but you didn't volunteer the info.. she had to dig for it.. and she's not invited).. again you (DHV).. then you walk away (WALK, don't run! Think about it! You couldn't stay and talk because you have to go somewhere, but you're not exactly running because you're late.. you're taking your time walking.. HUGE! She's not as important to you as your friends are, and you didn't NOT talk to her that much because of some time constraint, but rather because of choice.. her subconscious/unconscious mind will pick up on this, and her conscious mind will rationalize "wow, I guess I was wrong.. no way he likes me, he wasn't shy or nervous, he just didn't care.. he didn't even invite me! I can't believe i'm that much of an idiot to think he liked me.. I could have sworn he did.. I guess I was wrong about him".. (DHV).. (Again, learn from my most recent mistake, DON'T GO OVERBOARD with active disinterest! AD isn't being COLD/RUDE.. it's still being friendly and warm.. but just having other things you find more interesting, worth your attention and time.. like her friends or that lunch you have to go to with your friends)

- It gives her time to remove and re-rationalize those feelings of you being interested in her or "shy".. while giving you time to come here tomorrow so we can talk about Inner Game.. ;)

Best of Luck..

P.S. (Subtle Unconscious sh*t-test warning: She may start acting warmer and might actually want to keep talking to you even though you're leaving, and you might be tempted to stay.. DON'T.. it's simply inconsistent.. she'll be thinking (oh.. i thought he had to go, what happened?).. run the quick-fix.. and take your time walking away.. no matter what.. DON'T act, have someplace to actually be so your unconscious mind doesn't feel a sense of conflict as if it's lying.. you actually DO have somewhere to be.. and it will show..)

Only-virgins
16-02-08, 12:20 AM
Well, I am off to there. Be back. I'll try and bring up something fun and not sound needy. I hate being in a hurry.

GrkScorp
16-02-08, 03:08 AM
I'll try and bring up something fun and not sound needy.

Well, I hope that goes well.. just always be sure to be the first one to leave the interaction, and always leave on a high-note, not when it's drying/dying out..

It's better to have "her" thinking.. (Oh.. we were having such a great time but then he had to go).. rather than.. (Ugh.. thank g-d he left! it was getting pretty awkward/boring)..

Rule of 10: If someone tells a joke.. and it's funny.. then "it's funny".. but if someone tells 10 jokes which are funny.. then "he is funny".. Comedians use this during stand-up.. they establish to vibe in the beginning, use new material in the middle.. and finish with well-tested material which they know is funny..

Have 10 encounters with her, or 10 moments where you leave on a high-note.. and all of a sudden you're go from "that was fun, funny, interesting" to "he's fun, funny, interesting".. It takes a big man to be able to leave on a high-note and not try and push it further.. when you're on a high-note, you can only go lower! The conversation can only start to fall! So it's time to make your exit, even if just temporarily.. because she'll rationalize:

- We were having so much fun.. but now that he's gone, i'm not having as much fun.. therefore when he's around, i'm having a great time.. (let her rationalize this 10 times and you will have just succeeded in conditioning her to be more happy around you and like it when you are around)

- Notice how this is better than leaving on a low-note by trying to push the interaction further after a high-note: Ehh.. when he's around and when he's gone, it's pretty much the same.. Even worse! I actually have a better time when he's not around.. (moral of the story, don't push the interaction after a high-note, because it can only go lower.. be able to know when it's time to temporarily exit "i'll be right back.. I have to go to the bathroom, hold on I need to make a call I just remembered something.. etc")

A great way to pull away and come back is to "anchor" that "high-note" moment onto her.. (usually by sound "voice", touch "preffered", or smell "not a nasty smell, try your neck or arms, make sure they smell good and go close as the interaction is on a high-note.. she'll unconsciously register the smell and associate it with the high-note moment.. as you're leaving.. be close enough for her to smell you.. if you don't want to chance it.. ask her to tell you if she likes the cologne you're wearing.. it'll send an unconscious jolt through her mind that will bring her back up to those high-note emotions")

Notice how useful anchoring is to prevent you from making the mistake of pushing the interaction too far and falling into a low-note.. you can quickly tap into that anchor, regain some of those high-note emotions/feelings.. and then exit..

Again.. the popular HS kid.. you don't like him.. but he comes at your table and he's friendly, fun, and interesting.. he makes you feel good.. and then he's gone temporarily.. when he's gone, you notice that you're not feeling as great as you did around him and you're not having as much fun.. but then he comes back.. and all of a sudden, your mood is elevated.. but all he did was come back.. think about it!

It's sort of like pulling the plug on Christmas.. She's having such a great time around you, and so is everyone else, but you can take it all away, or keep yourself there where she can have fun.. when she picks up on this, that you control this social/emotional power over the interaction.. that you are in control of these feel-good feelings.. and she's no longer able to resist it as fact.. the chase has started..

Believe me, i'm a guy.. i've seen all of this in action.. and despite having it all work in practice, I still place Psychology under a chick-crack category.. eventually, and rather quickly.. the best way to learn is by doing..

"I hear, and I know.. I see, and I understand.. I do, and I learn"
- Negotiations Prof.

GrkScorp
16-02-08, 05:59 AM
1.) Being nervous

I'm glad you placed this first, so let's first talk about what it is and what it means to be nervous..

Simply put, nervousness is an internal conflict that exists between a person's conscious reality and unconscious reality.. this contradiction creates stress as both senses of reality clash and are found in conflict with eachother.. the result, nervousness

I like to use the lie-detection example to illustrate this.. The challenge is simple.. you can put your hand in a bag and grab either a white or black ball.. only YOU know what color you have in your hand.. Then, you are hooked up to a polygraph test and interrogated by an expert.. (NSA training).. The objective is to be able to lie through the test & interrogation..

It's impossible to consciously control the microsignals your body produces, because they are beyond conscious control.. they are all a product of the unconscious.. (hence the beauty of the polygraph test).. BUT! all you need to do is convince yourself that the ball is the opposite color "the one you have to lie about".. and thus, your unconscious reality is consistent with your conscious reality.. they are no longer in conflict, not only is there no nervousness, there are no microsignals that will give the agent away..

Now, no more examples.. How does this apply to you?

Simple.. your unconscious is very aware of your internal reality.. you meet someone you like.. and now you're consciously trying to present yourself in your best light.. (confident, quality, value, funny, interesting, fun).. that's when your conscious mind begings to question itself, unable to validate what it wants to project, it starts to consciously fake it, creative inconsistency, creating nervousness..

So, the first thing I want you to do, on this thread, on this forum.. is ask yourself some questions.. and post up the answers.. Meaningful/full/deep answers..

- We've all had embarassing moments in our life, while you're thinking through many of those times, i'm sure a couple of them stand out more than others. What are some of those times? How did they make you feel?

- We've all faced challenged in our lives, we face them every day. Some are large, others are small. What are some of the challanges that you've faced in your life? What was going through your mind as you were faced with them for the first time? How was it like to get through them? How did you feel afterwards?

- I'm sure there've been times where you've felt great about yourself. Maybe it was something you did or said, or maybe it was something that happened. Whatever it was, when you think back to those moments, what were they? How did your body feel like? How was your breathing different? What emotions were going through your head? How did it feel like to feel great about yourself for that moment?

- Every person is unique. Although we're all similar to some degree or another, we have traits, characteristics, and qualities about us that compose our own unique identity. I'm sure you can think of some of those qualities in you. Some people can write an entire book, others are more modest. As you think about all the unique qualities you have, make a list of the 5 best qualities you have that define you as a person. Take a moment to think about them and write them all down. How do they all tie in together? Can you think of moments where you've seen them in action? What were some of those moments?

- Lastly, we all want something, we all have goals. Can you think right now, about what you want? What do you want from life? What do you want from other people? What do you want from your future? 1 year from now? 5 years from now? 10 years from now? While you're thinking about that, ask yourself, what do you want from yourself? What qualities in you do you want to bring out from within? What do you want to be able to do? Before you change and improve yourself, you have to know what you want to be able to do. What is that?

IndiReloaded
16-02-08, 06:28 AM
Here OV, I was going to put this in the other thread, but read you made a new one. I did a quick curiosity search & found this:

http://www.sosuave.com/articles/talktowomen.htm

I was skeptical, but at a glance, this actually seems like an interesting site.

Only-virgins
16-02-08, 02:26 PM
Here OV, I was going to put this in the other thread, but read you made a new one. I did a quick curiosity search & found this:

http://www.sosuave.com/articles/talktowomen.htm

I was skeptical, but at a glance, this actually seems like an interesting site.


I disagree with this from that site Indi. Though I can see why someone would maybe think that. Some girls may freak when they feel interest from the guy and in may cause uncomfortable feelings in her.



If she feels like you are actually interested in her, she'll become MUCH more interested in YOU

Only-virgins
16-02-08, 02:44 PM
Hey. I ran into her and said "What is this? you again? I keep running into you" ....she looked at me and I asked "How was that test?" ..When she responded "It went ok but I'm not sure"...I than started to slowly take a turn down the hallway away from her saying "See you later, I have to get going"...she slowed down and stopped ...and gave me this cute smile...dude...I almost caved! so I smiled and walked away....crap!

Only-virgins
16-02-08, 03:03 PM
Simple.. your unconscious is very aware of your internal reality.. you meet someone you like.. and now you're consciously trying to present yourself in your best light.. (confident, quality, value, funny, interesting, fun).. that's when your conscious mind begings to question itself, unable to validate what it wants to project, it starts to consciously fake it, creative inconsistency, creating nervousness..

So, the first thing I want you to do, on this thread, on this forum.. is ask yourself some questions.. and post up the answers.. Meaningful/full/deep answers..

- We've all had embarassing moments in our life, while you're thinking through many of those times, i'm sure a couple of them stand out more than others. What are some of those times? How did they make you feel?

- We've all faced challenged in our lives, we face them every day. Some are large, others are small. What are some of the challanges that you've faced in your life? What was going through your mind as you were faced with them for the first time? How was it like to get through them? How did you feel afterwards?

- I'm sure there've been times where you've felt great about yourself. Maybe it was something you did or said, or maybe it was something that happened. Whatever it was, when you think back to those moments, what were they? How did your body feel like? How was your breathing different? What emotions were going through your head? How did it feel like to feel great about yourself for that moment?

- Every person is unique. Although we're all similar to some degree or another, we have traits, characteristics, and qualities about us that compose our own unique identity. I'm sure you can think of some of those qualities in you. Some people can write an entire book, others are more modest. As you think about all the unique qualities you have, make a list of the 5 best qualities you have that define you as a person. Take a moment to think about them and write them all down. How do they all tie in together? Can you think of moments where you've seen them in action? What were some of those moments?

- Lastly, we all want something, we all have goals. Can you think right now, about what you want? What do you want from life? What do you want from other people? What do you want from your future? 1 year from now? 5 years from now? 10 years from now? While you're thinking about that, ask yourself, what do you want from yourself? What qualities in you do you want to bring out from within? What do you want to be able to do? Before you change and improve yourself, you have to know what you want to be able to do. What is that?

What would be the point with all those questions to myself. Specially the ones about where I want to be in like 1 or 5 years. Am I supposed to change myself or just do something else to be a better person at conversations?

I have had a shitty love life and have not been with a woman till a few years after high school. Before that I was chicken shit, I can barely forgive myself for the opportunity I missed with a girl that I still think about. The signs she sent out were incredible and I did nothing. At one point she was even getting tears in her eyes during class and I knew it was because I didn't do anything for along time. I hate myself for it sometimes. So I don't have really strong feelings for anyone at the moment and I WANT TO MAKE SURE that when I have these feelings again that NO anxiety, nervousness, and lack of conversations skills get in the way. I can't have that happen again so I am sure you know where my interest is coming from. I find these now girls practice. I need to talk to girls. Some sex wouldn't hurt once in a while :D.

I think it would be hard to try and pretend for someone that they have some great qualities to offer. Anyways, I am content with my life...I wouldn't mind some affection now...as pathetic as that sounds.

GrkScorp
16-02-08, 07:29 PM
What would be the point with all those questions to myself. Specially the ones about where I want to be in like 1 or 5 years. Am I supposed to change myself or just do something else to be a better person at conversations?

The point of this is/are many things..

1. To eliminate any limiting beliefs you have towards strangers/women
2. To focus and build a strong sense of identity
3. To make your unconscious mind fully aware of a realistic picture of your internal reality, one which you want to project to others

This doesn't involve changing yourself, although you should always be improving yourself (body, learning interesting things, learning fun things, doing fun things, etc)

All this is doing, is getting you to think.. and all it will do is bring out the person inside of you which is for the moment very inhibited..

But it's a personal journey.. I can't take it for you.. it's something that's up to you.. you have to take the journey, and as you take that journey and feel those changes from within.. you have to be able to land where you want to in terms of where you want to be.. The only thing I can do, is guide you in this journey, which is why these questions are vital.. These are really the only questions we'll BOTH need to know.. from that point on.. the journey is entierly yours.. I'll only be steering you and keeping you on the road.. but it's YOU that has to be taking the inner voyage.. and as you feel your internal reality become crystal clear to you.. I want you to notice now natural & instinctive your interactions will become.. but all in due time.. for now.. back to those questions!

GrkScorp
16-02-08, 08:55 PM
Hey. I ran into her and said "What is this? you again? I keep running into you" ....she looked at me and I asked "How was that test?" ..When she responded "It went ok but I'm not sure"...I than started to slowly take a turn down the hallway away from her saying "See you later, I have to get going"...she slowed down and stopped ...and gave me this cute smile...dude...I almost caved! so I smiled and walked away....crap!

A simple "hey you!" always does the job.. "What is this? you again? I keep running into you" screams (This is obviously not how I normally speak.. and you can probably tell I took a good moment to put this sentence together.. i'm trying hard.. which means I like you.. but I hope you'll see it as confident/cute/fun/funny).. But if your mind had an exit-goal already in place, i'm sure your tone of voice was non-needy/non-try-hard..

Don't worry about almost caving.. (although you did fail a test.. she showed you interest and you almost caved.. but at least you didn't run up to her and stay there).. I'm honestly very proud of you though.. e-high-five.. you went through with the quick fix and it seems like it worked..

Analysis:

"It went ok, but i'm not sure".. (comfort, that's all this suggests).. don't confuse it with "It was ok".. or "I dunno".. seperately, those translate to (ugh, leave me alone; I can't stand it when you're around me and I have to keep talking to be polite).. but together.. it's safe to bet there's "comfort" (not the same with interest, not even close).. but comfort is good..

As for the cute smile.. can't say much about it.. Women are infamous for fake signs of interest.. Like the insecure creatures they are.. they constantly strive for attention and validation (their weakness, or your doom.. whatever you choose to make of it).. one way they do this is to feel they have you under their belt.. they may touch you, smile at you, tease you, and talk about sex the whole night.. and for any poor guy who can't read into the whole situation too well.. he'll naturally try and step things up just slightly.. (touch back, go in for a kiss, tease back, talk about sex with him and her, etc) and before you know it, she's running for the hills yelling "ugh.. I swear.. all men think about is sex.. pigs, all of you.. dogs.. sex crazed animals.. how dare you! don't talk to me again.." (but she's not really shocked.. she was expecting this.. actually waiting for it.. so it can all end and she could move along to the next desperate guy who will gas-up her ego & esteem)

So, what i'm worried about is if this smile was a fake IOI.. if it was.. let's hope the quick fix kicks in.. if it wasn't.. then the quick fix will still kick in.. and you'll be getting more IOIs..

No more theory.. take the time to answer the questions so we can get this ball rolling..

misombra
16-02-08, 11:16 PM
so you're teasing women with our feigned interest and telling ov to feign disinterest.

anyway, i could always tell if a guy liked me the very moment he opened his mouth to say something to me.

if she wasn't smiling because she likes you, she was probably amused with the whole "i'm SO not interested" thing.

but i have to agree with gskorp in that i think the person with the least interest has the most power.

GrkScorp
17-02-08, 08:54 AM
so you're teasing women with our feigned interest and telling ov to feign disinterest.

if she wasn't smiling because she likes you, she was probably amused with the whole "i'm SO not interested" thing.

First of all, not the case that she was "amused".. that implies that she rationalized OV's actions to mean he likes her (had to go? didn't dig deeper and want to talk? took his time walking away? not exactly OV looking to be around her).. I can't believe you would use such a counterproductive psychological tactic in favor of this girl and to the disfavor of OV.. (LF Bros be4 hoes)

The quick fix is instant and on the spot.. the fact that you showed no willingness to stay, no needy-ness in trying to push for a conversation, etc.. helps in the rationalization process..

This is the beauty of active disinterest, put-downs, and ignoring her and talking and being friendly with everyone else.. She can't rationalize that you like her, because doing so would be vain of her, and inconsistent with available information you're giving out.. her ego-protection mechanism kicks in, and instead of thinking "he likes me".. thinks.. "hmm.. why doesn't he like me? everyone likes me, i'll show him.."

That's when she'll start to test.. with her fake IOIs & IODs, but I think the quick fix should have done the job.. But equally as important.. always be the one to leave/exit/hang-up/have to go/etc from an interaction.. The subcommunication of that is that you lost interest first (and while to guys this doesn't work, SHE'S NOT A GUY!) for as long as she's having fun around you, and you're pulling away, taking it away.. you're conditioning her to chase..

Lew Burke's Dog Training: (Punishment/Reward system)

- If she gives you IOIs, ignore them, always be conservative and consider them fake and manipulative (initially).. eventually, when she's continued to qualify herself and has displayed at least 3 unconscious IOIs.. you can "reward" her with more attention/fun/good-feelings.. and eventually, IOIs of your own
- If she gives you IODs, be unaffected, and "punish" her.. what I mean by this is simply take away the fun/value you're providing so that she no longer feels as good.. talk to her friends, shift attention to someone/something else and be distracted.. (but don't make it a big deal, make it seem natural, as if she just did something to make you bored & uninterested)
- Set up a situation where she can qualify herself or shine in a positive light (show off for you).. then reward her with IOIs sometimes, while not being that impressed other times..

Theory: Obvious & Simple

- When she gives you IOIs that are genuine & real, she has more fun.. you're conditioning her to increase the frequency & degree of IOIs she gives you
- When she gives you IODs, she no longer feels good, but not because you're punishing her directly, but rather indirectly by taking away those good-feelings.. you are conditioning her to stop giving IODs, because doing so means she has less fun (something she can rationalize to be her OWN fault, within her direct control, and she'll stop doing it so she can continue to feel good and have more fun)
- Lastly, you condition her to WANT your IOIs as a reward via qualifying herself.. In short, you're both training her to chase you, and to look at your attention, validation, and IOIs as a reward; offering almost no resistance to them..

Reality: She has nothing to offer you.. Unless she cleans her butt with $100 bills.. for the moment, she has nothing to offer you.. the only thing she can do is sit there and look cute (boring).. In reality, the only person providing life & fun in the interaction is YOU.. So I ask, why are you chasing and seeking her attention? DON'T! Because doing so implies that the only thing you are after is her sexual favor.. When she qualifys herself to you, and you slowly & eventually (on-off) reward her with IOIs, you make your interest in her legitimate (that is to say, she can rationalize that she has DONE something to give you reason to like her for HER, and not just for sex)

The person with the power here is YOU.. Don't fall for her state of mind or get sucked into her frame.. YOU provide the fun and feel-good-feelings.. she provides nothing but company you could find anywhere else.. The only value she has, is the value you give her and make her believe you think she has.. That's a useful tool, FOR LATER! But enough with Theory.. back to State of Mind & Inner Game, no more distractions OV.. the sooner we get this over, the sooner you can have whoever you want..

TheSphinx
17-02-08, 10:16 AM
I have had a shitty love life and have not been with a woman till a few years after high school. Before that I was chicken shit, I can barely forgive myself for the opportunity I missed with a girl that I still think about. The signs she sent out were incredible and I did nothing. At one point she was even getting tears in her eyes during class and I knew it was because I didn't do anything for along time. I hate myself for it sometimes.

Some people may argue the point, OV, but I feel you are a genuinely awesome fellow.

Whether through Grk's advice or otherwise, I think once you are able to get past this and actually accept yourself as an awesome guy, you won't have much trouble meeting women.

I say this because women are especially good at picking up on someone else's energy or state of mind ("reading" people) and they most likely detect it in you if you are carrying this thought process around.


So I don't have really strong feelings for anyone at the moment and I WANT TO MAKE SURE that when I have these feelings again that NO anxiety, nervousness, and lack of conversations skills get in the way. I can't have that happen again so I am sure you know where my interest is coming from. I find these now girls practice. I need to talk to girls. Some sex wouldn't hurt once in a while .

It's excellent that you are deciding on what you want to take care of now for the future, but please don't lose sight of the fact that you will be dealing with another person.

You can sling pickup lines or "openers" as you please and even have whole conversations with random women that you meet to practice your social skills.

Hell, you might even find that a few of these women want you to come to their place after meeting you, solely to practice a more physical skill set on you.

But in my opinion, you have to reach a point that you can allow yourself to let go of the fear, embrace strong feelings for a woman and experience her on a deeper level.

I encourage you not to hold yourself back because of the past or out of fear of having some part of you rejected.

Bare in mind that a "now girl" could very well be that future one you are hoping to find. And even if things don't work out with a girl you meet now, OV, would you rather fill the space between "now" and "time I meet my ideal partner" with half-assed relationships?

I guarantee to you that the confidence you will gain from sharing yourself wholly with another and satisfying her, even with things about yourself that you may find boring or nerdy, will far outweigh the confidence that comes from a wallet full of phone numbers.

~Sphinx

Only-virgins
17-02-08, 11:17 AM
OK, I don't even know where to start. I see that girl Monday and now I don't know the next step. There is another girl now in the picture in a lobby(hehe she will be my trial number two after the look she gave me...it is time to return a bit of favor to the opposite sex for all the teasing they have done to me in the past). Anyways, I said all that because it seemed like a simple "hey you" was a boring attention getter. I rationalized in my mind that she would think that "I keep running into you" as something playful. Man, I think she saw right through it....that smile felt more like a "what the hell?" kind of mind frame for her. I really don't know. By the way, I would rate her an 7 out of 10. She for sure is the blonde girl that a lot of the men around here look at. For a few seconds when I talk to her I always think "She is talking to me!" ...gets me in trouble every time.

To everyone else, I don't know but the things he says make sense. I see it happen all the time. I used to hang out with my friend named Stan. This ugly guy had girls up to his neck ...I couldn't believe it. I at first thought that he was just a "nice guy" ..man he ignored half the girls that later were coming onto him. I still don't understand how. One girl came up to him and asked him to buy her a drink ( she was hot) ...he refused with a pretty mean expression....and I saw him with her two days later in his car! I was like...."wtf!" ...why do I get the gut feeling that if he accepted and played along with her that she wouldn't be there?

Anyways, I just realized Grscorp is right...women have nothing to offer accept sitting there and looking cute in social events...lol...why do I feel like I am always the one trying to win her over....well....I realized why...there is one flaw man....it is called COMPETITION. You are showing disinterest and you lose her? someone else walks in on your plan? after all..parties or social gatherings and have more people right? I know, she still might be thinking "why doesn't he like me when most guys do?" but if there is a better looking guy in front of her will she care?

How can you pick up on IOIs like that? what if you miss her real meaning or something?

LF bros before hoes! ...lol ....bros before hoes...that is what Stan always said.

Lots of people aren't going to like the "training" women into chasing you on here haha.

I'm taking off for a bar and dance grill club right now. Maybe I can see something I like.


Some people may argue the point, OV, but I feel you are a genuinely awesome fellow.

Whether through Grk's advice or otherwise, I think once you are able to get past this and actually accept yourself as an awesome guy, you won't have much trouble meeting women.

I say this because women are especially good at picking up on someone else's energy or state of mind ("reading" people) and they most likely detect it in you if you are carrying this thought process around.



Isn't that what he kind of is saying? To make yourself believe that you have something to offer?

Anyways, I really appreciate that you have this opinion of me. I think I am an awesome fellow too...but for some reason a unlucky awesome fellow and I am just trying to find out why. I am sure it has something to do with the way I present myself and say things because I get women approaching me first with interest once in a while.

Anyways, I don't understand what fear you are talking about when you say let go of the fear and you can share a deeper feeling with a girl. Also what kind of past is holding me back. Didn't understand that at all.

TheSphinx
17-02-08, 11:52 AM
Anyways, I don't understand what fear you are talking about when you say let go of the fear and you can share a deeper feeling with a girl. Also what kind of past is holding me back. Didn't understand that at all.

For clarification-The fear was in reference to the second quote, specifically that anxiety, nervousness, and conversational skills must be ironed out before you have feelings for a woman again. I'm not saying it's wrong to want this, only that you might miss out on your way there.

The past event was in reference to the first quote I posted, more specifically hating yourself for it sometimes.


Isn't that what he kind of is saying? To make yourself believe that you have something to offer?

Hopefully it's so that you can realize that you have had something to offer all along.

~Sphinx

GrkScorp
17-02-08, 02:56 PM
Hopefully it's so that you can realize that you have had something to offer all along.

Exactly Sphinx!

I live in NYC, and it's not just packed with good-looking women.. It has great-looking guys too..

Here's how to look at guys.. Guys are just ugly chicks.. it's that simple.. Yes, they're going to come over, and try to pick up women in your group.. but like I told you.. there are ways to counter this, and there are traps to set for them to fall into..

I'm working a group.. the whole group is having a great time.. this new guy comes in trying to take someone from the group or make himself part of the group..

- Awkward-Test (70% success rate): "Hey! Do we know you?".. most of the time they just move along.. and all you have to do is quickly stack onto something fun like a game or trick that involves the whole group.. Guys are toast..

- Out-Alpha (Indirect): Tool him by telling him you want to show him something.. asking him to jump through hoops "sit down, hold this, open your hands, do this, do that.." before you know it, he's your b*tch, you have his compliance, and best part of all.. he's adding nothing to the interaction.. you're making him look like a beta, while you're making yourself look fun and more alpha.. "tooling him".. then you lock him out of the interaction after you're done, and watch him go puppy-dog-mode..

- Out-Alpha (Direct): Cut into his conversational threads.. "hey, don't mean to cut you off... one second, before I forget..".. Be louder than him, and don't be affraid to turn your back to him and isolate him from the group.. they almost always go puppy-dog-mode.. A couple have grown pissed-off and started to make threats and were ready to fight.. which leads me to..

- Make him Qualify himself: Always unattractive.. he's showing his true aggressive/rage colors, making himself look like an idiot as you're keeping your cool.. "Hey dude, sorry, but I don't go that way.. less touchy-feely.. haha..".. now he's too busy qualifying himself, showing his insecurity in his sexuality.. If he gets physical.. you have people around you.. (But learn Jujistu or Aikijujutsu; and either joint-lock him or throw him on the floor and hold him there while the bouncers come.. again, you've out-alpha-ed him).. you can get up and say to the girls "wow, I guess he really liked you guys.. you know.. 8,000 years ago, when people still lived in caves, this would be a huge turn-on.. this is what primitive humans used to do.. I guess what they say about some guys is true.. they never grow up.."

In any case.. you are ALWAYS the source of fun and good-feelings.. ALWAYS.. the leader in your group.. where other guys follow you, girls want you, and people want to be around you.. This is actually easy.. all you need to have this is:

1. Strong sense of Identity & Inner Game
2. Solid State of Mind
3. Value, fun, and good-feelings to add to the interaction

Examples:

- Tony: He preforms at private parties and exclusive establishments for a living.. Very talented musician, Amazing voice, also plays the guitar (accustic/electric) and the piano.. go with him to a kareoke bar, and you'll get bored of pulling women..

- Ben: Speaks 8 languages, british accent, and is an art history & english major.. he will tell you everything about any artist, work, and period.. he can also recite works of litterature and poetry like it's in front of him.. boring you say? Watch girls melt like putty

- George: Really warm & friendly guy who's always happy.. his value? humor.. an unlimited supply of it.. and he knows people who know people who know people who know people..

Everyone is different, unique, and has their own value to add.. All you're going to do.. (the sooner we finish this) is become perfectly aware and in control of the value you have to offer..

okapa
17-02-08, 10:31 PM
I know this is another thread but hey. I know I make mistakes in the most subtle ways when talking to individuals and I'm hooked on the some of the ideas Grkscorp has mentioned. This thread is devoted thus to improving once social interaction and I with that reasoning placed it in the "development" section of the LF forum.

Maybe we can learn how to avoid some things such as
1.) Being nervous
2.) Sounding needy
3.) wrong body gestures
4.) improper eye contact


Whatever it is I have been doing wrong I want to know. Girls approach me and than they run. How can I be something I am not, that doesn't make to much sense. If the conversation is going no where what do I do? what do I say? and how do I say it?

Just maybe this thread will be helpful to all the people making threads along the lines of "I like a girl but how do I approach her, what do I do, and what and how do I say it?"


Well, since this thread is to talk about our experiences, I recently asked Grk for some books on the subject. Not because I feel I need them, but because I've always been fascinated by human interaction and I wanted to find patterns.

I gotta tell you they're great, they awake your confidence if you know what I mean. I'm not a shy guy but I didn't act totally as I should.

I went out yesterday, having read one and half books. It was a party, I didn't know almost anyone, I just presented myself to everyone. By the end of the night, two girls tried to kiss me, five gave me their phone numbers - I only asked for one - and I was invited for another party.

My advice: try to look special. For example, when you go into bars, they give you a card to fill with drinks and you pay when you get out... at least over here lol. So, I managed to get two cards - see where I'm going? I use one for drinks then pay for the other one : D

That gave me a "**** the system charming aura" which I used to push other guys and I ended dancing in the middle of about 10 girls.

Just to prove it works, I'm 15. I still have a lot to improve though, I suck at the comfort fase right now, I didn't have a clue how to push a girl to a quiet place and talk to them...

I was interested in one, she was interested in me... I mean she had her eyes glued to me, she touched me everytime she could, she even mirrorred me... Or is it confindence getting to my head lol? Whatever, she was a bit shy in conversation so we just danced and I asked for her number before she left.

What should I have done? I guess I'm going to resume my reading now...

EDIT:

Ok, now I got some questions:
1. What do I do if I want to make an unconfident person attracted and comfortable with me?
2. I don't know if it's the same where you live, but over here the only way girls know how to interact with a guy seems to be over text messages. Should I go along? Any tips?

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 11:10 AM
By the end of the night, two girls tried to kiss me, five gave me their phone numbers - I only asked for one - and I was invited for another party... I suck at the comfort fase right now, I didn't have a clue how to push a girl to a quiet place and talk to them...

I was interested in one, she was interested in me... I mean she had her eyes glued to me, she touched me everytime she could, she even mirrorred me... Or is it confindence getting to my head lol? Whatever, she was a bit shy in conversation so we just danced and I asked for her number before she left.

What should I have done? I guess I'm going to resume my reading now...

EDIT:

Ok, now I got some questions:
1. What do I do if I want to make an unconfident person attracted and comfortable with me?
2. I don't know if it's the same where you live, but over here the only way girls know how to interact with a guy seems to be over text messages. Should I go along? Any tips?

I'm proud of you.. You did great :lol:

Getting stuck in comfort is where a lot of guys go wrong..

Solution:

- Always kino, from the start!
- Nothing is ever a big deal, there's no awkward moment when touching
- Let it build up slow (brushing, touching hands, arms).. and then go deeper (ahem! with the kino.. breathing down her neck, wisper into her ear, pull on her hair, let her legs graze you, sit her on your lap, gently touch her face/cheeks/nose/chin with your palms/finger when she does something silly/cute, hands and arms around her waist/hips, kiss her forehead/cheeks, playfully bite her nose/chin, etc)..
- Psychologically tear down road-blocks.. "stories & patters".. kino is comfort building and creates familiarity with your touch.. that's why you should always kino.. but when you touch people around you in general.. (your touch is no longer a big deal).. but with shy women, you'll need to set her at ease with this.. It's not comming to me now, but go through my posts, I got a shy girl poster on here to give a handjob to her bf.. if text alone can do it.. content + delivery can definitely do it.. Point is, talk about stories with friends you know or even you.. talk about women doing/going to the next phase you want to be (kissing, making out, sex) and make it sound perfectly normal and not like a big deal.. make sure you don't judge.. you have to make her realize that it's normal.. that you won't judge.. and that nobody will find out.. because you use "discretion"
- Unethical (but effective): give her situations where she can "qualify" herself to you.. Don't always make her feel like she's shined in a positive light.. do this on-off.. as you do this.. she'll rationalize that you're interested in her and attracted to her because of the qualities she's worked so hard to show you.. after hours/effort of qualifying herself for you.. she'll begin to feel that she's winning you over.. But all you're doing is teasing her.. you're never pushing for sex.. in fact you don't even push for kino after a certain point.. you just breath down her neck.. look her in the eyes, smile, and pull away.. it's cruel, frustrating.. but in short, you're turning her on and pulling away.. getting her aroused and pulling away.. she'll feel safe in that you're not pushing for sex.. she'll feel comfortable because nobody will find out (with you) and you don't judge her.. so with all road-blocks removed and her turned on.. all she needs is a place.. she'll make up a reason for what she's about to do on the way there..
- Friends! If she's shy, she won't do anything around her friends with you.. the fact that she's touching is HUGE.. she must really like you to open up like this in front of her friends.. but alone-time is simple.. it's called a "date".. just you and her.. no friends or anyone else holding her back from what she wants to do..

Texting:

- That's unacceptable.. Don't give in to this form of talking..
- Tell her that you can't stand texting, it's childish, and you don't feel like you're really talking to the other person.. you can't understand people who like to text.. you hope she's not one of those people (she'll say no.. she's not one of those people.. if she says yes.. then tell her that's a shame, because you liked talking to her.. make sure she has your number or that she'll see you again.. that way she'll stop game-playing, and you won't get sucked into her frame)
- Tell her that you like to talk on the phone, to at least feel like your talking to the other person on the other end.. that you want to hear her voice on the other end.. there's something so amazing about people's voices (I would stack onto patters/realities here)

Note: It wasn't confidence getting to your head.. at 15, girls are stuck at a strange rut.. they look around and all they see are "boys" who claim to have pythons in their pants and be players.. then they have "boys" who are nice/sweet/polite/gentle/quiet/reserved/boring.. This is the phase where girls start to feel superior to boys.. they feel more mature, and they naturally want a guy who is more mature, and will make them feel more mature "hence older men".. But then there's YOU.. you're not quite like the "boys" they're used to.. but you're around the same age and not quite "older" to make them feel that awkward pressure of being with an older guy at age 15-16.. They can't put their finger on it, but they know you're something special.. and they also see that other girls want/like you.. and like the catty creatures they are.. they all jump on you to claim you all for themselves..

Keep reading on.. keep growing.. keep learning.. but most importantly.. keep having fun :)

Best,

GrkScorp

IndiReloaded
18-02-08, 11:36 AM
Some people may argue the point, OV, but I feel you are a genuinely awesome fellow.

Whether through Grk's advice or otherwise, I think once you are able to get past this and actually accept yourself as an awesome guy, you won't have much trouble meeting women.

I say this because women are especially good at picking up on someone else's energy or state of mind ("reading" people) and they most likely detect it in you if you are carrying this thought process around.



It's excellent that you are deciding on what you want to take care of now for the future, but please don't lose sight of the fact that you will be dealing with another person.

You can sling pickup lines or "openers" as you please and even have whole conversations with random women that you meet to practice your social skills.

Hell, you might even find that a few of these women want you to come to their place after meeting you, solely to practice a more physical skill set on you.

But in my opinion, you have to reach a point that you can allow yourself to let go of the fear, embrace strong feelings for a woman and experience her on a deeper level.

I encourage you not to hold yourself back because of the past or out of fear of having some part of you rejected.

Bare in mind that a "now girl" could very well be that future one you are hoping to find. And even if things don't work out with a girl you meet now, OV, would you rather fill the space between "now" and "time I meet my ideal partner" with half-assed relationships?

I guarantee to you that the confidence you will gain from sharing yourself wholly with another and satisfying her, even with things about yourself that you may find boring or nerdy, will far outweigh the confidence that comes from a wallet full of phone numbers.

~Sphinx

^This is the most real advice I have seen thus far on this topic.

OV, I completely agree w/Sphinx & you should think about this. Games are for children who are trying to find their way (which has limited value while trying to 'figure things'), but eventually should be replaced by authenticity. Great post.

IndiReloaded
18-02-08, 11:52 AM
I'm working a group.. the whole group is having a great time.. this new guy comes in trying to take someone from the group or make himself part of the group..

- Awkward-Test (70% success rate): "Hey! Do we know you?".. most of the time they just move along.. and all you have to do is quickly stack onto something fun like a game or trick that involves the whole group.. Guys are toast..

- Out-Alpha (Indirect): Tool him by telling him you want to show him something.. asking him to jump through hoops "sit down, hold this, open your hands, do this, do that.." before you know it, he's your b*tch, you have his compliance, and best part of all.. he's adding nothing to the interaction.. you're making him look like a beta, while you're making yourself look fun and more alpha.. "tooling him".. then you lock him out of the interaction after you're done, and watch him go puppy-dog-mode..

- Out-Alpha (Direct): Cut into his conversational threads.. "hey, don't mean to cut you off... one second, before I forget..".. Be louder than him, and don't be affraid to turn your back to him and isolate him from the group.. they almost always go puppy-dog-mode.. A couple have grown pissed-off and started to make threats and were ready to fight.. which leads me to..

- Make him Qualify himself: Always unattractive.. he's showing his true aggressive/rage colors, making himself look like an idiot as you're keeping your cool.. "Hey dude, sorry, but I don't go that way.. less touchy-feely.. haha..".. now he's too busy qualifying himself, showing his insecurity in his sexuality.. If he gets physical.. you have people around you.. (But learn Jujistu or Aikijujutsu; and either joint-lock him or throw him on the floor and hold him there while the bouncers come.. again, you've out-alpha-ed him).. you can get up and say to the girls "wow, I guess he really liked you guys.. you know.. 8,000 years ago, when people still lived in caves, this would be a huge turn-on.. this is what primitive humans used to do.. I guess what they say about some guys is true.. they never grow up.."

In any case.. you are ALWAYS the source of fun and good-feelings.. ALWAYS.. the leader in your group.. where other guys follow you, girls want you, and people want to be around you.. This is actually easy.. all you need to have this is:

1. Strong sense of Identity & Inner Game
2. Solid State of Mind
3. Value, fun, and good-feelings to add to the interaction

GS, this makes you sound like a total asshole & incredibly insecure. You treat a total stranger like shit & think this makes you attractive to women? I'm really sorry to say this, but I think there are some men that need to know that there are a lot of women who would find this behaviour really appalling. A classy woman would never tolerate this type of behaviour in a male.

The more I read of these techniques you suggest to young men, the more I think its more for those trying to build up a damaged ego (at the expense of others). If this is really how young men today think they need to act in order to 'get women', I think this is a very sad state of affairs.

I know I sound old-fashioned, but where have the gentlemen, the REAL gentlemen (not the fakers using it as technique) gone?

vashti
18-02-08, 11:55 AM
I told you, OV.

misombra
18-02-08, 01:29 PM
First of all, not the case that she was "amused".. that implies that she rationalized OV's actions to mean he likes her (had to go? didn't dig deeper and want to talk? took his time walking away? not exactly OV looking to be around her).. I can't believe you would use such a counterproductive psychological tactic in favor of this girl and to the disfavor of OV.. (LF Bros be4 hoes)



i would never take any girls side against ov. i'm always on his side.

ov seriously, take gskorps advice with a grain of salt.

like bob marley says, you can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time. i'm just saying if it's a smart girl you're after, she's going to recognize the game, and she's not likely to appreciate it.

Kiechi
18-02-08, 02:05 PM
"You're more beautiful today than you were the day I met you. You had a really big pimple that day."

Only-virgins
18-02-08, 02:26 PM
but where have the gentlemen, the REAL gentlemen (not the fakers using it as technique) gone?

Women destroyed them by pushing them away. Women are to blame if you think about it. Why act like a gentlemen and a good person if I get less women that way? I have been a gentlemen all my life and got no reactions what so ever....if it doesn't work why bother? As we scientists say...it is all about the results. No offense but can you tell me WHAT TO DO instead of what NOT TO DO. I am here simply because what I am doing is not working and GRSCORP is the only person who seems to have advice. Not to mention that in the past week, his advice is working...and yes....maybe at the expensive of her ego or what not...but why should I care anymore? I believe EVERYTHING happens for a reason and I am tired of being that guy who either gets rejected with out even getting a chance and pushing it off in my head with something along the lines of "Bad luck" or "Maybe next time". Not true, there is a reason for why everything happens and he seems to have the best answers for why...or answers at all for that matter.

It is not like he is brain washing me. I can think on my own. I do what I always do. If someone makes a claim and puts something in front like he did...I do what I always do...I test it. Though I think we all know that being a nice gentlemen is epic failure in relationships these days.


you can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

I settle for some people cause I am getting none being me.

vashti
18-02-08, 02:27 PM
Because the ones worth keeping won't fall for that crap.

Only-virgins
18-02-08, 02:46 PM
Because the ones worth keeping won't fall for that crap.

Who said anything about keeping anything? and how do you know? Oh and if they don't fall for that crap can you tell me what crap they do fall for? Seems like the classy girls switch from liking the big egos in man to big wallets. Equally as pathetic. One is easier to control by men though. I know what girls really want, they want that spark and chemistry...so do I ..but I haven't had it happen in over 10 years...I can't count on it anymore and would like just a bit of fun...thats all I am asking for.

TheSphinx
18-02-08, 03:02 PM
Why act like a gentlemen and a good person if I get less women that way?

Your reasons are your own, OV, but I choose the above because that's how I want to live, not because it gets me more women.

~Sphinx

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 03:06 PM
Oh gosh.. women crack me up.. when they feel they have no grounds on a topic.. they start to come in strong via getting nasty, name-calling, and trying to attack the ego.. Indi.. seriously.. you're better than that.. and besides.. like i've said early in this thread.. it's an "Inner game" thread.. not a "tactics" thread..

OV, this thread is to make you realize certain things about yourself.. I want to help take you on an inner journey to realize the value inside of you.. and so far.. you've showed ZERO willingness to take the journey.. and like I told you.. I can't take it for you.. it's a step YOU have to take..

I'm also not going to degrade or insult anyone's advice.. But I would like you ladies to realize that you're looking at the flip-side of the coin here.. yes, women play games.. and when guys play games, all of a sudden they turn into moral/ethical creatures with manners which talk about what is proper.. All of a sudden they want a "real" gentleman who doesn't play games.. or so they claim.. before they run off to someone who does.. That's one of the typical responses I get; the other is obviously the "oh, that would never work on me.. I want a "real" man, that doesn't play games, that I can control, that I can mold like clay.."

If there would be a thread about how girls/women should get guys, what games they should play.. It would obviously follow that some guys would flood it with "oh g-d, these games are so annoying.. a "real" woman/lady doesn't need to do this.. blah blah".. Then you would get some guys saying "I would never fall for that".. and some other guys calling these women "b*tches & insecure".. all because it bothers them inside to watch other girls get armed with how to mentally terrorize guys.. fair enough.. that's the battle of the sexes.. but don't think for a second that i'll feel any reservations to call anyone on their moral-ethical-bullsh*t..

In a perfect world, nobody would play games, everyone would be a 10, and so on and so forth.. but we don't live in such a world.. there are people who are bored.. people who are immature.. notties in a group.. orbiters in a group.. jerk guys who come and try and take your group you've been working hard on.. and a bunch of whako/sicko people in that mix..

But like i've said very early in this thread.. let's NOT turn it into a "theory" thread.. PM for that.. let's keep it a place to develop your "inner game"..

Inner game is NOT about changing who you are.. it's NOT about being FAKE.. it's NOT about making you into something you're not.. but it IS about improvement.. it IS about discovering the value you already have.. it IS about realizing that value so clearly and being so fully aware of it that you can develop a strong sense of your personal identity.. and it IS about bringing out the best in you, locking it in as an internal reality, and being able to automatically and unconsciously present it to others..

OV.. i'm waiting for your answers to those Inner Game questions..

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 03:10 PM
Because the ones worth keeping won't fall for that crap.

Why not? Thought so.. shhh...

There's no difference between the ones worth keeping and the ones not worth keeping in terms of "falling" for this..

- Smarter? Even women not worth keeping are smart.. cleaver.. and that breeds very sneaky creatures..

That amounts to nothing more than a poor female attempt to find reason to convince you otherwise.. Other attempts?

- Don't be a loser
- Don't be mean
- It's not nice
- If she's a classy girl..
- If she's smart..
- If she's worth it..
- If you're a "real" man
- Only immature people play games
- Not everyone plays games (that's right, relationships only have 1 woman, the other person is usually a man)

Only-virgins
18-02-08, 03:22 PM
I didn't know almost anyone, I just presented myself to everyone. By the end of the night, two girls tried to kiss me, five gave me their phone numbers - I only asked for one - and I was invited for another party.


How did you just "present" yourself? What is a card you put drinks on? I have been to many bars and have never heard of such a thing.

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 03:23 PM
Your reasons are your own, OV, but I choose the above because that's how I want to live, not because it gets me more women

Nobody is telling you to be an @sshole..

The difference between men and women is as follows..

- Men use games to COUNTER female games
- Men use games to LEVEL the playing field (to snap women out of that "i'm all that" trance they all like to fall into)
- Men use games NOT to CONTROL women, but to bring out the REAL women in women.. the (non-game-playing-control-freak) girl inside her
- Men actually turn game OFF after they're in a relationship

but..

NO MORE ON THIS CHITTER CHATTER!

BACK TO INNER GAME.. NO MORE DISTRACTIONS.. I WANT YOU TO FOCUS.. ON YOU!

Only-virgins
18-02-08, 03:35 PM
What questions on the inner game? You gave some advice.

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 03:47 PM
What questions on the inner game? You gave some advice.

Look on the first page.. I asked you to think of some questions.. this thread is NOT about advice.. it's about personal INNER change.. and I want you to read those questions and think about them.. take your time.. as you relax and read through them.. and while you realize the answers to the questions.. make the effort to capture everything you feel, everything you want.. and write it back.. we'll take if from there OV :)

GrkScorp
18-02-08, 03:52 PM
What questions on the inner game? You gave some advice.

Look on the first page.. I asked you to think of some questions.. this thread is NOT about advice.. it's about personal INNER change.. and I want you to read those questions and think about them.. take your time.. as you relax and read through them.. and while you realize the answers to the questions.. make the effort to capture everything you feel, everything you want.. and write it back.. we'll take if from there OV :)

I'll be back tomorrow.. take all the time you need OV.. don't rush yourself.. feel free to take on one at a time if you need to.. take as much space as you need.. i'll get to all of it.. don't leave out anything just for the sake of being short..

Best,

GrkScorp

IndiReloaded
18-02-08, 04:12 PM
Women destroyed them by pushing them away. Women are to blame if you think about it. Why act like a gentlemen and a good person if I get less women that way? I have been a gentlemen all my life and got no reactions

Is this about quality or quantity, OV? They are different problems w/different strategies. I would say GS, and all the Systems he uses, has cornered the market on quantity. I'm not convinced about quality.

Re: your comment about women. You are, frankly, too young to be drawing this bitter conclusion. This is learned behaviour. Your N is too small & your dating repertoire too limited (based on what you have posted in the past). There ARE decent, nice girls out there who want to date nice men like you. You won't find them in bars tho hovering around men like GS describe. I can't believe times have changed THAT much since I was dating that this isn't still true. Check your motives for this thoughts origin.


As we scientists say...it is all about the results. No offense but can you tell me WHAT TO DO instead of what NOT TO DO.

Okay, OV, here's what you do: find a girl you are sincerely attracted to. I am assuming you want a relationship, not a simple hook up. Study her from a distance & USE that fine brain to figure out what will catch her attention. Then *do those things*. Be funny, witty, clever, in a slow but steady way. Try to evoke things that will engage her emotions, women are emotional--humor is the easiest to start with. In these things, I agree w/GS, confidence is important, but it needs to be real. Give her time to process what you are doing, observe her responses & do more of what works & less of what doesn't. Just like an experiment! When the time is right (she smiles a lot & seems receptive to you) ask her out to something you enjoy: symphony, the museum, rock climbing, canoeing, volunteer to build houses for poor ppl together.... whatever. Most importantly, tho, TALK to her about things that are important to her & to you. Be fun & funny with depth & w/out guile.

Don't be an asshole as you do this. Be confident, be manly, but in a way that shows the best of who you are. The problem w/much of what GS says is that it will evoke the 'law of attraction': you will get what you give--a manipulative, shallow woman who thinks its okay for a guy to treat her like shit. If that's what you want, fine, go for it. It sounds like insecure women may fall for that type of thing. But if you want someone with intelligence & depth who is secure in themself, just be all those things I mentioned, but also authentic. How do I know? That's how my husband & I grew together. It works & I don't think my case is rare or unusual. I suspect Miso, Vash, Squirrley will have similar stories, different in detail but the same in general method.


It is not like he is brain washing me. I can think on my own. I do what I always do. If someone makes a claim and puts something in front like he did...I do what I always do...I test it.

Yes, I know you can think for yourself but did want to alert you, and anyone else who reads this as to the problem w/these 'player' methods. At least, that's what it was called when I was your age (playboys, players, etc). They really don't work for certain women. If GS has experience w/this (he may not b/c he hangs out in bars) he's not saying. Again, its quantity vs. quality issues. Anyway, its still the same tek-niques, from what I can see, just there are now guys all over the internet making $ off men buying their book 'Systems' these days. Its a game, pure and simple. If sex is your goal, it will work; it worked when I was your age & I'm sure its still true today. Just be very clear to yourself what you want & why.


Though I think we all know that being a nice gentlemen is epic failure in relationships these days.

I disagree OV. My husband was a gentleman & he stood out b/c of it. Well, perhaps I am old fashioned. Maybe girls today don't want to be treated as ladies (I doubt it). I suppose it depends on what you are looking for.


I settle for some people cause I am getting none being me.

Fair enough. What you are currently doing isn't working so try something else. Agreed. In fact, I'm certain you are smart enough to take 'what works' for you from these methods & bin the rest. Just beware the 'asshole techniques'; its not true that all women will fall for them. GS has posted NO experience with LTRs, keep that in mind. And I'd hate to see you lose anything (or anyone) in this regard for the sake of expediency, that's all.

Personally, I like Cam's method (pity he hasn't posted on this): on a date he acts like his charming self & sets his standards. If they don't measure up, he says '**** 'em' & walks away. But he doesn't bother with the games. See the difference? He's got integrity & doesn't bother w/trying to mind**** someone. Why would you even want someone who is stupid enough to fall for this crap anyway? Something to think about.

Anyway, OV, I don't want to hype on this like your mom anymore, lol. Just remember you are dealing w/ppl, who are human & should be respected as such. Bitchy women, like player men, are simply flavours of ppl to be ignored/avoided if they are not what you are looking for. Keep your dignity & listen to that little voice that says 'this isn't right' when you hear it & you will do fine.

IndiReloaded
18-02-08, 04:24 PM
That amounts to nothing more than a poor female attempt to find reason to convince you otherwise.. Other attempts?

- Don't be a loser
- Don't be mean
- It's not nice
- If she's a classy girl..
- If she's smart..
- If she's worth it..
- If you're a "real" man
- Only immature people play games
- Not everyone plays games (that's right, relationships only have 1 woman, the other person is usually a man)

This is just a cheap attempt at psych on your own part, GS.

I'm calling bullshit on your posts for reason of inconsistency. If you really believe that your aren't promoting someone to be an asshole, explain the post I pointed out (the one about the guy approaching your group in the bar) & why it ISN'T cruel to treat someone like that.

While you're at it, explain how basing a relationship on manipulation will encourage girls (or anyone) to be their 'natural game-free' selves. You said the games stop? I think the 'exit strategy' for this is something that really needs explaining b/c I can't see it. Do you have experience in this?

And yes, I'm an idealist. I expect the best of ppl & I generally get it as a result. I genuinely like OV & I'd like to see him in a solid, happy relationship w/a nice girl. How about you? Have you actually *observed* this type of method producing this kind of result for someone like him? Be honest, if you can please.

vashti
18-02-08, 10:00 PM
I don't understand why the inexperienced males actually buy all the crap Grk posts when:

1) the females on this board are unanimously disgusted by his methods.

2) No one knows for sure that he is as successful catching women as he claims.

Some of you guys must be pretty desperate.

BTW OV - I agree with indi about the bitterness. You should really lose it - if anything is keeping the women from you, it is certainly the bitterness. Optimism is a much more attractive trait.

okapa
18-02-08, 10:48 PM
It's not really his advice, you can find a lot of writers who've worked on that subject, he just made a very good work at reading and understand them all.

And it sort of works, I've tried and I was sucessful to a certain degree I guess

edit:


How did you just "present" yourself? What is a card you put drinks on? I have been to many bars and have never heard of such a thing.

"Hello, do you know whose birthday it is (it was a mixture of 3 parties I think lol)?" or something else, I don't know, just don't show that it's a big deal, make it natural. Most people just asked my name and developed a small conversation.
Over here you get a card before entering a bar. When you ask for a drink, they mark your card and you have to pay before you leave as there's always someone at the entrance.

Thanks for your support Grk, I just hoped text messages weren't free lol.

misombra
18-02-08, 11:57 PM
ov, you should just affirm to yourself everyday, that you are a good guy and you are deserving of a good girl.

if you carry that with you all day, i guarantee the good girls will come to you.

the games are stupid. ask any woman here if when they met their boyfriends or husbands if games like that were exposed to them.

on my part, no. no games, no manipulation. if that was there, it would have been doa.

okapa
19-02-08, 12:31 AM
ov, you should just affirm to yourself everyday, that you are a good guy and you are deserving of a good girl.

if you carry that with you all day, i guarantee the good girls will come to you.

the games are stupid. ask any woman here if when they met their boyfriends or husbands if games like that were exposed to them.

on my part, no. no games, no manipulation. if that was there, it would have been doa.

It's not like a game, it's interpreting women signs and trying to take advantage from them, it's being smart. But what OV needs is to feel good with himself.

OV, your happiness doesn't reflect others, only yourself... If you wanted, you could spend all your day home and you would probably find something to do without anyone else - what I mean is, others are important, but not as much as you, you're the one who has a choice over your life, not them.

Good luck mate, sorry I'm not so good at those elaborated speeches.

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 02:00 AM
It's not like a game, it's interpreting women signs and trying to take advantage from them, it's being smart. But what OV needs is to feel good with himself.

I agree w/this. I just don't believe the way to achieve this is to act like an asshole/be fake. It is those points that I point out. Some of the authors GS takes his ideas from have some merit, I agree. But like any idea, they have limitations & in some cases serious problems.

Perhaps GS is just explaining himself badly, I allow for that possibility. But, there ARE ppl out there who use these techniques in ways that many do not consider ethical. And, contrary to what GS might post, there is nothing wrong w/ethics. It is the fabric of our society & the core of who we are as humans. So. Are there bitchy women out there who treat guys like shit? Sure. Do I think they are any better than player types. Not at all. I view both personality types as needing to work on their self-esteem & maturity.

There is a middle path to finding a balance b/t confidence, good communication & still being a decent human being that doesn't need to 'succeed' at the expense of others & your self-respect. "Working" someone is only necessary when you believe you can't have an authentic communication w/them (so GS, you might want to consider dropping the NLP lingo w/OV in your posts, he's too smart for it). That is all I am saying.

okapa
19-02-08, 02:20 AM
Maybe I'm exagerating, but if this helps you understand it, whatever:

You are in a war. You represent men. You are fighting against women. They are using athomic bombs on you. Will you use it on them?

Now, it isn't as bad as it sounds - by winning them over, you are feeling better but you are also making them feel better with themselves. And by getting a girl, she isn't going to be with a pseudo-bad-boy who is the real asshole - you may act like one to get her, then you just act normal. What if you are acting like one? Are you going to private yourself from life because of ethics?

Just do what feels good with yourself and makes you happy, that's what's important.

edit: And try to make girls and other human beings happy aswell, as long as it doesn't make you feel bad.

misombra
19-02-08, 02:47 AM
It's not like a game, it's interpreting women signs and trying to take advantage from them, it's being smart. But what OV needs is to feel good with himself.



how is ov supposed to feel good about himself when he knows he's manipulating people into liking him and do cruel things to people to go about it?

ov is likable all on his own. he doesn't even have to try.

misombra
19-02-08, 02:49 AM
Maybe I'm exagerating, but if this helps you understand it, whatever:

You are in a war. You represent men. You are fighting against women. They are using athomic bombs on you. Will you use it on them?




it's really sad that you think of it like that. sad, and a little pathetic.

vashti
19-02-08, 02:52 AM
What's up with the war analogies?

Weird.

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 03:00 AM
I don't understand why the inexperienced males actually buy all the crap Grk posts when:

1) the females on this board are unanimously disgusted by his methods.

2) No one knows for sure that he is as successful catching women as he claims.

Some of you guys must be pretty desperate.

They buy it b/c GS is like a religious convert-turned disciple trying to convince his 'poor fellow men' to see the light. LOL.

Tapping into someone's emotions, esp when vulnerable/confused (whether by themselves or manipulated into it by someone else), is a time-tested way to get what you want from them. Ask any used-car salesperson.

That said, there IS a problem here. There ARE a lot of desperate young men & women trying to connect out there, I think. So they grasp onto things like these manipulation techniques for lack of a better alternative.

GS, you try to attack my being a female, etc. when I'm attacking your ideas. No prob; it doesn't phase me at all, but I do want to point out that its irrelevant. My being female has no bearing on whether my points have any validity or not. Carry on doing so if it gives you some comfort but understand it demonstrates some internal biases you own, (you're making your keys rather obvious dude) & dilutes the effectiveness of your good ideas by making you look bad . That is not my intent. For me, this is all about the ideas.

We have heard much (ha!) about GS's experiences in this regard & what he believes works in certain situations. I don't think his way is the only way (in fact I know it isn't). There have been other opinions expressed by ppl with experiences just as valid who did NOT require these gaming methods GS proposes. I'm not saying not to get out there & get what you want. I'm saying try to stay human while doing so. Find a middle path.

Think about it.

TheSphinx
19-02-08, 03:44 AM
You are in a war. You represent men. You are fighting against women. They are using athomic bombs on you. Will you use it on them?

Why not approach the women, unarmed, and calmly explain that you have nothing to be fighting about in the first place?

~Sphinx

okapa
19-02-08, 04:15 AM
it's really sad that you think of it like that. sad, and a little pathetic.

Did you read my entire post? Even the part you quoted?

What I used there was to try to make him understand under conflictuory circunstances. If you didn't get it, I will try again.

A relationship is, at least in my opinion, a healthy bound between a man and a woman (the kind of relationship that I'm talking about, of course). It is, therefor, good for both parts.

However, women do have, again from my point of view, greater power on social terms. And, from personal experience, they do use games and manipulation to get individuals they like.

So, if they do it with the objective of getting an healthy relationship, why can't I do the same? That is my point.

By the way, we are not lieing or something, we are attracting someone by influencing her subconsciously.

You are only uncomfortable at our ideas because you are afraid they might work at you, making you lose the superior status you think you have. Actually, the one you have in modern society.

We are trying to balance things to our side, with benefits for both parts. There is, however, a part of all this game theory that I do not agree with.

And it is lieing. Because if I approach a girl, it's with an objective in mind - either befriend her, or be her boyfriend and I do not think lieing contributes to any of these two.

Looking forward to read your response.

misombra
19-02-08, 04:27 AM
nobody can make you powerless without your permission.

vashti
19-02-08, 04:29 AM
how old are you, okapa?

okapa
19-02-08, 04:37 AM
I guess you could look a few posts back but I'm 15.

I'm not going to argue based on experience, I know you have the upper hand and I do respect your opinions, unlike you may or may not think.

I also accept any criticism you might have, go ahead, but please, make it constructive, will you?

okapa
19-02-08, 04:37 AM
nobody can make you powerless without your permission.

That would be what people do all over the world...

Sorry for the double post.

Edit: By the way, would I be a good-looking, nice and smart girl I would take advantage of that. I think we agree here, right?

Edit again: not saying you aren't one, I have no clue about that.

Edit again: noticed a post:


Why not approach the women, unarmed, and calmly explain that you have nothing to be fighting about in the first place?

~Sphinx

I do not approach women with a recorded speach and try to **** them... I approach them, show who I am and see what they have to offer as people, and I try to find out if I am interested in them. Just one thing: I don't think you should let a girl know you are interested in them upfront because that will make you look like you're another normal guy - if that was even what you meant.

vashti
19-02-08, 05:07 AM
I guess you could look a few posts back but I'm 15.

I'm not going to argue based on experience, I know you have the upper hand and I do respect your opinions, unlike you may or may not think.

I also accept any criticism you might have, go ahead, but please, make it constructive, will you?

I will not bash on a kid, but I just hope you know that you are very young, and your level of experience if very limited. High school girls do not remain high school girls forever, and they will tire of this mind set. Remember, they are only just beginning to learn about themselves at your age, just like you. They are awkward about weilding power, just as boys are awkward about interacting socially.

The methods GrkScorp advocates would really never work for an adult woman with a reasonable amount of healthy self esteem. he wishes to manipulate needy, insecure girls, which let's face it: it really isn't all that hard to do because they are so needy. What you need to ask yourself is if that is really the kind of person you want a relationship with.

Of course, you have a number of years to worry about that. At the age of 15, I understand why you find Grk's methods interesting.

okapa
19-02-08, 05:18 AM
I will not bash on a kid, but I just hope you know that you are very young, and your level of experience if very limited. High school girls do not remain high school girls forever, and they will tire of this mind set. Remember, they are only just beginning to learn about themselves at your age, just like you. They are awkward about weilding power, just as boys are awkward about interacting socially.

The methods GrkScorp advocates would really never work for an adult woman with a reasonable amount of healthy self esteem. he wishes to manipulate needy, insecure girls, which let's face it: it really isn't all that hard to do because they are so needy. What you need to ask yourself is if that is really the kind of person you want a relationship with.

Of course, you have a number of years to worry about that.

Yes, of course I've not been dating 20+ years old women. And I would love if my personality alone would be alone for the girls my age, but if it is, I've been unlucky with that. At least with the girls I've been attracted to.

I understand your point of view and I hope you're right, but that tell her you like her or give her a flower advice has only worked 4 times so far... It's sad but it's the truth.

Well, I don't think I'll keep arguing now that I understand you, mind you that the anology was just to make someone (don't remember who now) understand.

I have to go, test tomorrow, cya all...

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 06:02 AM
tell her you like her or give her a flower advice has only worked 4 times so far... It's sad but it's the truth.

You are 15. That (4 times) is quite respectable at your age. You actually sound like you are doing just fine.


Well, I don't think I'll keep arguing now that I understand you, mind you that the anology was just to make someone (don't remember who now) understand.

You are not at war with women. Women are not at war with men. If you continue to believe that, you will have problems. Self-fulfilling prophecy. The goal is mutual growth & understanding. Vive la difference! ;)

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 07:10 AM
how is ov supposed to feel good about himself when he knows he's manipulating people into liking him and do cruel things to people to go about it?

When the cat's away.. the mice come out to play..

So far.. i've read EVERYTHING Indi, Vash, and Mis have wrote.. So far, i've yet to stumble over anything substantial or any solid attack against anything i've said.. all 3 have nothing but "soft" blah blah going on.. but it's understandable.. 2 single mothers, it's understandable they're not happy with men.. it's understandable women want to advocate fair play for men..

Quantity over Quality? Never.. Quality and Quantity.. always.. But you'd be a fool to believe that "quality" in a woman comes in the form of her being game-free.. If she doesn't play games with you directly, her friends will tell her to, her orbiters will tell her to, her own mother may even tell her to.. Have you had the luxury to be part of a girl's-night-out? Think of it like sitting in a table with Indi, Vash, and Mis.. talking about how horrible men are, and how they would just like that perfect man..

In the world.. that "quality" woman will put up a b*tch-act, a cold-act, and WILL play games.. does it mean she's not a quality women? Not at all.. Many of the same game-playing b*tch girls have turned out to be amazing people after the first 15-30minutes you shut off their act.. Are there women who never turn off the act? Yes, and that's because it's not an act.. It's because who they are.. and those are the women who's number you should never ask for.. those are the women who you should share your value with..

But again, this thread isn't about anyone but OV.. This thread has NOTHING to do with women.. this is about OV realizing and letting out that value from inside of him.. that's all this thread is about.. that's what we mean when we say "Inner Game".. So again OV, take your time, and I hope to see your posts follow up to those questions..

Best,

GrkScorp

vashti
19-02-08, 07:16 AM
but it's understandable.. 2 single mothers, it's understandable they're not happy with men.. it's understandable women want to advocate fair play for men..



Two single mothers? Where? :surprised

Both indi and I are happily married. We both have sons we adore. (I have a daughter, too.) Why should we not be happy with men?

Only-virgins
19-02-08, 07:19 AM
Ok everyone! hold it! lol....there is like 3 pages I have to read here. Threads gone bonkers.

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 07:27 AM
Two single mothers? Where? :surprised

Both indi and I are happily married. We both have sons we adore. (I have a daughter, too.) Why should we not be happy with men?

Oh Vash... he knew this. Led you right into it. Self-destructive button-pusher. But its a good example for those following the thread about the attempts at psych I was describing. :P

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 07:41 AM
But again, this thread isn't about anyone but OV.. This thread has NOTHING to do with women.. this is about OV realizing and letting out that value from inside of him.. that's all this thread is about.. that's what we mean when we say "Inner Game".. So again OV, take your time, and I hope to see your posts follow up to those questions..

Best,

GrkScorp

LOL. Here, GS, let me do the 4th repeat for you. NLP anyone? (OV, go read about this sometime).

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 07:54 AM
Two single mothers?

Oh yeah.. that's right.. lol.. I even remember clipping out the article for Indi's husband..

Anyway.. OV.. take your time and give your answers some effort and thought.. The more you do.. the more you'll realize about yourself.. and ahem.. the sooner you do.. the sooner you will too..

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 08:05 AM
LOL. Here, GS, let me do the 4th repeat for you. NLP anyone? (OV, go read about this sometime).

Indi.. i'm not trying to seduce OV.. lol

And it's not NLP.. it's indirect suggestion.. it's a clinical psychotherapy method.. where you sit back.. and allow the client to discover himself/herself.. you simply guide the client until he/she finds the solutions that are best.. or finds what he/she is looking for in general..

As Milton Erickson said, "I was riding a horse, and I didn't know which way to go back to the stable.. So I let it wander, every so often it would go off the road.. and I would simply tug it back on course.. in just 2 hours, it took me back to the stable"

Believe me OV, you're going to have all of LF watching, and Indi more specifically.. you're going to notice the lack of covert commands (something that's impossible using text-only).. that's because what's important to me is NOT getting you to where I want you to be.. but getting you to where YOU want to be.. I'm not a magician, I can't transform you into something you're not.. I can only help you see who you really are, and what you have to offer.. That's something you'll notice and see more clearly as the ball gets rolling..

So, OV, if you'd be so kind..

Junket
19-02-08, 08:08 AM
I'm not a magician, I can't transform you into something you're not..

Well shit!

I f*ckin' give up, then.

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 08:14 AM
Oh yeah.. that's right.. lol.. I even remember clipping out the article for Indi's husband..

Anyway.. OV.. take your time and give your answers some effort and thought.. The more you do.. the more you'll realize about yourself.. and ahem.. the sooner you do.. the sooner you will too..

LOL, too funny GS. But okay: An apology for any implied offense would have been better, but your effort is nonetheless appreciated.

Have at it guys, sorry for the divergence OV.

IndiReloaded
19-02-08, 08:24 AM
Indi.. i'm not trying to seduce OV.. lol

And it's not NLP.. it's indirect suggestion.. it's a clinical psychotherapy method.. where you sit back.. and allow the client to discover himself/herself.. you simply guide the client until he/she finds the solutions that are best.. or finds what he/she is looking for in general..

As Milton Erickson said, "I was riding a horse, and I didn't know which way to go back to the stable.. So I let it wander, every so often it would go off the road.. and I would simply tug it back on course.. in just 2 hours, it took me back to the stable"

Believe me OV, you're going to have all of LF watching, and Indi more specifically.. you're going to notice the lack of covert commands (something that's impossible using text-only).. that's because what's important to me is NOT getting you to where I want you to be.. but getting you to where YOU want to be.. I'm not a magician, I can't transform you into something you're not.. I can only help you see who you really are, and what you have to offer.. That's something you'll notice and see more clearly as the ball gets rolling..

So, OV, if you'd be so kind..

Ah, I forgot. You're the one w/the pyschology degree, b/c some relative has one, right? ;)

NLP is a catchpot of all kinds of psych techniques, & its 'practioners' are a hodgepodge of dubious training. That's what makes it such a mess.

I don't remember the names of the techniques anymore but I know when I see them & I will point them out if I think they aren't being used in an upfront manner. You've been warned. I would suggest you just TELL someone you are just going to repeat stuff until they respond b/c you think it will help them. Or better yet, ASK them directly. Its an insult to try to do what you do to someone as bright as OV. I would ignore you too.

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 09:14 AM
I don't remember the names of the techniques anymore but I know when I see them & I will point them out if I think they aren't being used in an upfront manner. You've been warned. I would suggest you just TELL someone you are just going to repeat stuff until they respond b/c you think it will help them. Or better yet, ASK them directly. Its an insult to try to do what you do to someone as bright as OV. I would ignore you too.

To make one thing clear OV asked me the moment he himself created the thread.. and he himself will realize his own value..

Up front, i've already been up front about what you're about to go through.. I'm about to guide you through a mental journey.. and it's a very fine thread that will keep you on course, that's all I can do.. but it is YOU, OV, that has to take that journey.. and only YOU will find what's really inside of you, to familiarize yourself with the value you have to offer, to capture a crystal clear image of a strong and powerful identity that represents an uninhibited OV, an OV fully aware of himself..

Now, if you don't feel comfortable sharing that information with everyone, I understand.. feel free to PM me if that makes you a little more comfortable, that's perfectly understandable..

Best,

GrkScorp

Only-virgins
19-02-08, 10:09 AM
I know you said "meaningful" answers but the questions just aren't really all that deep in my opinion. They ask some things that I can't either A.) remember or B.) don't have an answer for.




- We've all had embarassing moments in our life, while you're thinking through many of those times, i'm sure a couple of them stand out more than others. What are some of those times? How did they make you feel?

I don't really have any because I don't really take risks. I swear the only ones are maybe being rejected by a girl one time, I was younger so that made me feel a bit regretful that I bothered. I haven't had to many embarrassing moments, kind of for the reason that I avoid them like the plague.




- We've all faced challenged in our lives, we face them every day. Some are large, others are small. What are some of the challanges that you've faced in your life? What was going through your mind as you were faced with them for the first time? How was it like to get through them? How did you feel afterwards?


School. I finished and got my masters. I felt accomplished. There really isn't more to say on that.



- I'm sure there've been times where you've felt great about yourself. Maybe it was something you did or said, or maybe it was something that happened. Whatever it was, when you think back to those moments, what were they? How did your body feel like? How was your breathing different? What emotions were going through your head? How did it feel like to feel great about yourself for that moment?

This is kind of the same question as the previous one. I guess it felt great the first time I had sex. I was anxious and in tense but became comfortable quickly and things were fun.



- Every person is unique. Although we're all similar to some degree or another, we have traits, characteristics, and qualities about us that compose our own unique identity. I'm sure you can think of some of those qualities in you. Some people can write an entire book, others are more modest. As you think about all the unique qualities you have, make a list of the 5 best qualities you have that define you as a person. Take a moment to think about them and write them all down. How do they all tie in together? Can you think of moments where you've seen them in action? What were some of those moments?

1.) Success
2.) I'm respectful to other people
3.) resourceful and clever
4.) As of now independent
5.) I can be funny, but that depends on the other person's sense of humor. Also I find myself logical and reasonable...those are always up for debate though and we prove those everyday.

Only-virgins
19-02-08, 10:22 AM
LOL. Here, GS, let me do the 4th repeat for you. NLP anyone? (OV, go read about this sometime).

Is that the Neuro linguistic programming thing? I know about it.


Is this about quality or quantity, OV?

Doesn't putting myself in the biggest group(quantity) raise the probability of me finding that great one(quality)?


Okay, OV, here's what you do: find a girl you are sincerely attracted to. I am assuming you want a relationship, not a simple hook up. Study her from a distance & USE that fine brain to figure out what will catch her attention. Then *do those things*. Be funny, witty, clever, in a slow but steady way. Try to evoke things that will engage her emotions, women are emotional--humor is the easiest to start with. In these things, I agree w/GS, confidence is important, but it needs to be real. Give her time to process what you are doing, observe her responses & do more of what works & less of what doesn't. Just like an experiment! When the time is right (she smiles a lot & seems receptive to you) ask her out to something you enjoy: symphony, the museum, rock climbing, canoeing, volunteer to build houses for poor ppl together.... whatever. Most importantly, tho, TALK to her about things that are important to her & to you. Be fun & funny with depth & w/out guile.

I would like a relationship but I haven't been attracted to a woman that way in a long time. So I don't know, hook ups are the only potential views on women I have. Honestly from the distant view there are just attractive girls and not attractive girls...I don't have that "sincerely interested" in girl. I don't count on it happening anytime soon either. Be witty? Clever? funny? evoke her emotions? in a slow way? Do what works and doesn't? you sound like Grscorp :surprised .


What's up with the war analogies?

Weird.

Yea, the war analogies suck. I'm not at war with women here, if so than my enemy carried me for 9 months and gave birth to me.

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 12:50 PM
maybe being rejected by a girl one time, I was younger so that made me feel a bit regretful that I bothered. I haven't had to many embarrassing moments, kind of for the reason that I avoid them like the plague.

Now, before we take care of every question with the attention it deserves, let's start with this one..

I'm going to take this a little slow, because the first thing i've noticed is that you scan/sum.. It doesn't make it impossible, just a little more challenging.. for me..

But back to you.. So.. there was something that happened with some girl under some circumstances.. It must have been a very special girl.. Obviously not anymore.. but at that moment, i'm sure you had some powerful forces in place, motivating you to take that risk for her.. That's usually the case.. not to try and generalize what happened to you or anything.. But I remember what it felt like.. There was this girl named Pamela back in school (that's her real name, btw).. Now that I look at her, I feel like such an idiot to have ever had such feelings for her.. now she's short, chubby, and not at all that attractive, if you would ask me to go out with her now, i'd have to politely decline.. but back then, I don't know what it was about her, but she had that special something.. At that moment, she was warm, friendly, happy, cute, sweet, adorable.. When i'd hear the sound of her voice talk to me and say my name, my ears would tingle.. when she would look at me, i'd gaze deep into her eyes and get lost in her smile for what seemed like hours in what was really only seconds.. but what really made me melt was when she stood next to me during choir, and our arms and legs would brush against eachother.. I hated singing, I always thought it was gay.. but at that moment, I was like those guys who join yoga classes to be next to that someone they fancy.. Anyway.. I don't remember how it happened exactly, but at some point I asked her if she wanted to hang out during the weekend, she was the first person I ever asked out.. and to add to that first.. the first "no" I ever heard.. I believe she said something like "I'm sorry, but i'm really busy".. I got the message, I was young, no student of DeAngelo's yet, but I wasn't an idiot.. I remember feeling numb at that moment.. I litterally felt "nothing" both emotionally and physically.. It wasn't until I got home that I started to feel upset.. it took a while, but the feelings started to build up fast.. The first thing I stopped doing was talking to my friends.. I just wanted to be alone.. When I realized that wasn't helping, I started feeling hate.. at her.. at myself.. I hated the way I felt at that moment.. like a failure, a loser, unwanted & unloved.. I didn't want to feel that way again anytime soon.. and to be perfectly honest with you.. I didn't ask out an other girl for well over a year until I finished with a seminar/workshop I was attending..

Now, I'm sure her name wasn't Pamela, and i'm sure a lot of details in your story are quite different from mine, but one thing that's the same is how it left us feeling.. which is normal.. that's just how every guy would feel if someone they really cared about didn't feel the same way..

What I want to know.. (whenever you have the time to give this some thought).. Is when did she say "no"? How did she say it?.. and how did you feel like after it happened? What were the thoughts that where racing through your mind?

Take as much time as you need OV..

Best,

GrkScorp

misombra
19-02-08, 01:04 PM
yeah ov. take your whole life if you want. hopefully there's a picture of her on your bed stand so you can remind yourself of your love every day.

let your obsession continue to be a succubus in your life.

GrkScorp
19-02-08, 02:45 PM
yeah ov. take your whole life if you want. hopefully there's a picture of her on your bed stand so you can remind yourself of your love every day.

let your obsession continue to be a succubus in your life.

Yeah yeah.. therapy c0ck-block.. we get it.. ha ha.. funny.. now seriously..

OV is clearly not interested in "her" anymore.. and he's not about to do that, nor was I suggesting he do so.. I just want to get a feel of the whole picture.. I have a pretty good idea of what's going on already.. but we're not going to get there until i'm 100% sure..

Show OV some respect.. he started this thread because he wants change.. he's seeking to improve his sense of identity.. and that's not going to happen with the aid of backround noise and other rude distractions.. So, please show some respect for OV and give him the comfort he needs to express himself fully.. thanks

misombra
19-02-08, 10:25 PM
Yeah yeah.. therapy c0ck-block.. we get it.. ha ha.. funny.. now seriously..

OV is clearly not interested in "her" anymore.. and he's not about to do that, nor was I suggesting he do so.. I just want to get a feel of the whole picture.. I have a pretty good idea of what's going on already.. but we're not going to get there until i'm 100% sure..

Show OV some respect.. he started this thread because he wants change.. he's seeking to improve his sense of identity.. and that's not going to happen with the aid of backround noise and other rude distractions.. So, please show some respect for OV and give him the comfort he needs to express himself fully.. thanks

i can say whatever i want.

i don't think ov wants to change. i think he wants justification to continue his obsession.

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 05:22 AM
Show OV some respect.. he started this thread because he wants change.. he's seeking to improve his sense of identity.. and that's not going to happen with the aid of backround noise and other rude distractions.. So, please show some respect for OV and give him the comfort he needs to express himself fully.. thanks

I agree with this. Just stop w/the mind**** type lingo & I think we'll all get along just fine. You are NOT a psychologist, despite your pretentions to such (your last post was a perfect example of this). I said before it just muddles the info. If you really feel its necessary as an example, then state it as such. OV, as you now realize, is quite the intellect so, ironically, the only one who has been disrespecting OV is you. We all understand how bright he is.

BTW, GS, on the chance this is news to you, perhaps you should take a look at your own inability to drop the 'act'. I've seen ppl get stuck in Pysch mode like this & its terrible for them. Just a quick aside for your own benefit.

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 06:09 AM
Is that the Neuro linguistic programming thing? I know about it.

Yes. Its pseudo science & the ppl who try to use it do not (usually) have any formal training in psychology. Think of monkeys playing with a cigarette lighter. GS posts to you have been riddled with drops from this type of thing. I think you get this, so I don't need to keep harping on it. BTW, that's his issue to deal with and doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from him, just be aware of the context of things. This is why Miso said to take things w/a grain of salt. You'll do this naturally, but its good to say b/c you're not the only one following this thread.


Doesn't putting myself in the biggest group(quantity) raise the probability of me finding that great one(quality)?

Yes, of course. You need to meet TONS of girls to figure out: 1. what you actually want, 2. how to meet her. But beware that you don't lose someone really great in the process of using 'the game'. Sometimes, luck happens & she will be there sooner than you expect, life can be unpredictable that way. I would suggest you pick & choose from the methods you read & avoid turning away someone who might be your 'keeper' by avoiding the 'asshole' techniques. GS may tell you to ignore this advice, but remember the context: he isn't coming from a place of a successful LTR.

Personally, I was much more attracted to men like Sphinx, Mish, Fras or Cam (my husband is this sort) who has confidence w/o these games. But the dilemma is *getting* to that point of confidence, I understand. And I think there is SOME benefit to some of these confidence techniques to separate the wheat from the chaff. Particularly focus on the ones that involve YOUR self-control (as opposed to controlling others--that's just ego sop).


I would like a relationship but I haven't been attracted to a woman that way in a long time. So I don't know, hook ups are the only potential views on women I have.

Yes, so again, volume is key. Agreed. But when you see quality, how will you know? And what will you do so she isn't turned off by 'game'. B/c, despite what GS says, he has little experience w/women who won't take kindly to attempts at manipulation. In my case, I ignored men like this. I didn't despise them exactly, but I found them too superficial, too wedded to a 'method' that they themselves didn't actually understand the utility of. Or when it should be dropped. Don't be like that.


Be witty? Clever? funny? evoke her emotions? in a slow way? Do what works and doesn't? you sound like Grscorp :surprised.

I already said I agree with SOME of what GS says. I don't need to give specifics b/c he is already doing so. I WILL tell you when I think he's full of it, tho, and why. All the things that have to do w/learning to control YOURSELF in an interaction is key. That advice about not showing TOO much interest to that girl & leaving off before things decayed into awkwardness was perfect. But the stuff about subtle insults to girls (or anyone), being mean to strangers in bars--that stuff is all shit & there is no %age in it except to try to artificially build up one's ego at the expense of another. Or to impress shallow women who are into abusive guys.

Monkeys w/lighters still manage to set trees on fire, just that most will also eventually burn themselves in the process. Some get smart, tho, and learn to keep a bucket of water close by. LOL, sorry, I'm feeling amusing today. ;)

This is just as true for women as for men, BTW.

Mish
20-02-08, 06:50 AM
Personally, I was much more attracted to men like Sphinx, Mish, Fras or Cam (my husband is this sort) who has confidence w/o these games.

Mmm, the feeling is mutual ;)



But the dilemma is *getting* to that point of confidence, I understand. And I think there is SOME benefit to some of these confidence techniques to separate the wheat from the chaff. Particularly focus on the ones that involve YOUR self-control (as opposed to controlling others--that's just ego sop).


What I like about Scorp is that he seems to have the "Approach and initiation" technique worked out quite well. I think all those books and experience are paying dividents in this area. Approach and initiation are very important in the sense that this is "do / repeat" process you need to go through in order to find a good match. You need to be not just good at it, but "sweep them of their feet" and, once you break it down it's not too complicated. You just have to look good, be funny, be interesting and create value for the girl. You have to be that perfect guy she's always wanted to be with and once that feeling is in all other patterns follow from there.

I've done it a couple of times and I saw that "spell" women fall under. It would be great to be able to cast that spell over and over again. It would make finding a good match so much easier.

Only-virgins
20-02-08, 07:38 AM
when you see quality, how will you know?

Didn't you answer it in the first part. When I SEE quality, how will I know? Well, I'm seeing it right?

I don't think GS is trying to show me how to aggravate and annoy women. Those were things in other threads anyways. The walking away thing is completely not me and since even you say that is a good thing and works I have to learn things like that. I for some reason have this dumb logical brain that tells me I should you know...keep talking to the person I like...probably cause it freaking damn it makes sense..

GrkScorp
20-02-08, 08:17 AM
I agree with this. Just stop w/the mind**** type lingo & I think we'll all get along just fine. You are NOT a psychologist, despite your pretentions to such (your last post was a perfect example of this). I said before it just muddles the info. If you really feel its necessary as an example, then state it as such. OV, as you now realize, is quite the intellect so, ironically, the only one who has been disrespecting OV is you. We all understand how bright he is.

BTW, GS, on the chance this is news to you, perhaps you should take a look at your own inability to drop the 'act'. I've seen ppl get stuck in Pysch mode like this & its terrible for them. Just a quick aside for your own benefit.

Indi.. I think it's been long understood despite you trying desperately to push a moot point.. that i'm not a psychologist nor a psych major..

I've studied much on the subject though, and i've helped many guys and girls (mostly guys) get on with their lives.. (school, relationships, work problems, esteem issues, mild depression)

Now, OV is just days away from feeling great about the wonderful person that he is.. it's a realization process.. it's not magic.. it's not psychology.. it's just conversation.. what i'm curious about is why YOU are offering such resistance to this? You really don't like seeing guys happy do you?

OV, if you'd still like to continue this conversation, which is almost finished, feel free to PM me.. I came to realize many things today while sitting in the bathroom looking at the water drops rolling down the shower door.. and while singing "A whole new world"..

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 08:51 AM
Indi.. I think it's been long understood despite you trying desperately to push a moot point.. that i'm not a psychologist nor a psych major..

No, actually this is the first time you have admitted such explicitly. Thanks.


I've studied much on the subject though, and i've helped many guys and girls (mostly guys) get on with their lives.. (school, relationships, work problems, esteem issues, mild depression)

I respect your experience, GS. Its just different from the experience that others have, including my own. There are many paths; you have found one that works for you & that is terrific but it may not be a perfect fit for everyone.


Now, OV is just days away from feeling great about the wonderful person that he is.. it's a realization process.. it's not magic.. it's not psychology.. it's just conversation.. what i'm curious about is why YOU are offering such resistance to this? You really don't like seeing guys happy do you?

GS, stop being a baby, please. This must be the first time anyone w/any depth of knowledge has actually called you on your methods. This will be good for you, then. OV knows explicitly my motives b/c I've told him. Its not to prevent his 'self-actualization', LOL.

Consider that once again, you resort to generalization & hyperbole. I was explicit in my examples of what ideas I think problematic & what I agreed with.

Since you don't seem to have experience or training discussing IDEAS, I will be explicit: don't take this personally. Not everyone will agree w/you, that's just how it is. My experiences & others disagree w/yours. Feel free to disagree w/these ideas likewise, but respond w/o pysch & without appeal to emotional/rhetorical methods or I will call you on it. Doing so guarantees a clearer, richer learning experience for everyone. I hope I'm being clear enough on this? B/c you are right, this is OVs thread. If you want me to psychoanalyze YOU, start your own thread. ;)

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 09:09 AM
Didn't you answer it in the first part. When I SEE quality, how will I know? Well, I'm seeing it right?

My bad. Women are less explicitly visual than men. I meant 'see' in an overall sense. "Quality" means different things to different ppl. Have you generated an actual list, either outright or mental as to your 'Top 5' traits you want/need in a partner? By quality, I mean someone who pings most or all of those w/o any dealbreakers.


I don't think GS is trying to show me how to aggravate and annoy women. Those were things in other threads anyways.

There were some, for sure, that would definitely irritate women who are wise to the 'game'. I or someone else will point them out when they come up. Beyond that, its up to you to decide what to do.


The walking away thing is completely not me and since even you say that is a good thing and works I have to learn things like that. I for some reason have this dumb logical brain that tells me I should you know...keep talking to the person I like...probably cause it freaking damn it makes sense..

I was reluctant to post this (its a work in progress) but your learning style is knowledge-based, OV, so I think this will help. Just remember you have to actually *apply* what you read. And don't mess w/your own 'deep tape' too much, man, it will make you nuts.

GS, if you navigate this site, use your power for good, not evil, okay? ;)

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9750&cn=353

GrkScorp
20-02-08, 09:30 AM
Yes, of course. You need to meet TONS of girls to figure out: 1. what you actually want, 2. how to meet her. But beware that you don't lose someone really great in the process of using 'the game'. Sometimes, luck happens & she will be there sooner than you expect, life can be unpredictable that way. I would suggest you pick & choose from the methods you read & avoid turning away someone who might be your 'keeper' by avoiding the 'asshole' techniques. GS may tell you to ignore this advice, but remember the context: he isn't coming from a place of a successful LTR.

Personally, I was much more attracted to men like Sphinx, Mish, Fras or Cam (my husband is this sort) who has confidence w/o these games. But the dilemma is *getting* to that point of confidence, I understand. And I think there is SOME benefit to some of these confidence techniques to separate the wheat from the chaff. Particularly focus on the ones that involve YOUR self-control (as opposed to controlling others--that's just ego sop).

Indi, my approach was largely Eriksonian, passive, and I was more interested in OV reaching his own goals & realizations.. YOU on the other hand, ironically, have taken a more aggressive NLP approach.. and you call ME the "asshole"? Anyway.. i'm not going to bother entertaining that little detail.. I know we're both reasonable people.. And I can't begin to appologize for the conflict of interest I constantly place myself in.. On one hand, I do want to help.. help guys like OV, like opaka, like DM.. who are great guys.. and are constantly being tooled by other guys, or by other women (directly or indirectly).. on the other hand.. Some women ARE animals.. and they deserve no better than basic dog-training.. but I no longer bother with such women as potential LTRs.. nor do I encourage other guys to.. I have more strait female friends than male friends.. and I wouldn't want someone doing these things to them.. Naturally, I would be frustrated too.. so I completely understand your frustration to what i'm saying.. but it's the conflict I have to dive into..

but this thread wasn't at all about that.. perhaps you unintentionally overlooked the little detail that i've been stressing ever since this thread started that it's about "Inner" game.. OV's self-control/internal reality/state of mind.. having NOTHING to do with external presentation.. having NOTHING to do with tactics or games.. just self awareness and realization..

The importance of "Inner" game is monumentally greater and more important than any little gambits that have worked in the past.. That's because with "Inner" game.. there is no acting.. there are no games.. there are no tactics.. all it is.. is self awareness.. perfect and total self awareness.. and through that, geniune and unlimited confidence..

THAT'S why I stressed that I can't make him into someone he's not.. because there's nothing fake or artificial about it.. and there's nothing aggressive on my part about it.. is there a premeditated conversational element involved.. YES.. and I even told OV so in the very beginning.. before this thread existed.. but it was HE who created it.. knowing very well what we were about to do.. I told him explicitly before-hand.. but "Inner" game can only be reached by OV and him alone! That's why all I can offer is ONLY a very passive approach.. letting him realize all he has to about himself..

GrkScorp
20-02-08, 10:12 AM
GS, if you navigate this site, use your power for good, not evil, okay? ;)

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=9750&cn=353

Quick point.. OV does NOT have a "problem"..

Secondly.. I think you misunderstand where i'm comming from.. if you think my goal is to be evil.. if you think I live to "punish" women and throw their games back to them.. for the most part.. that's not at all my goal (the only exceptions are women who REALLY deserve it.. which is very rare.. I think there was some girl from the UK that i'd place into that category, Foxy-something.. ugh)

I only help people who deserve it.. guys AND girls.. and if you think i'm cruel to women.. I should get my friend Carla to tell you what custom-made roller-coaster rides i've told her to put this guy through.. (he beat her, he deserved it)

In the beginning, yes, it's a battle for control.. try handing a child dynamite and see how fast it'll try and light it up.. as Milton Erikson said "with great power comes great responsibility".. dominance and total control can be intoxicating.. but that's the intoxication of "outer" game.. that's simply not real.. I STRONGLY advocate "inner" game.. because it's self-awareness.. it's mutual respect amung two mature people.. and that's really the objective.. the objective is NEVER to play games to dominate and control.. the goal is "no games" and to conclude to a state of mutual respect..

And it's not something exclusive to relationships at all.. The best example is actually work! But for this purpose, i've already painted a crystal clear picture of OV's value and power.. but i'm not interested in shoving it down his throat.. it's not even important what "I" see.. what's important is what OV sees in himself.. what he realizes about himself.. and that he's constantly fully aware and completely content & satisfied.. It's not only important to come off as more attractive and genuine.. but it also makes for a better relationship..

vashti
20-02-08, 10:20 AM
It must be mentally exhausting to suspect the world is full of game-players that you have to out-maneuver. I find it much more pleasurable to avoid those kind of people, which doesn't strike me as being all that hard to do.

Only-virgins
20-02-08, 11:26 AM
And it's not something exclusive to relationships at all.. The best example is actually work! But for this purpose, i've already painted a crystal clear picture of OV's value and power.. but i'm not interested in shoving it down his throat.. it's not even important what "I" see.. what's important is what OV sees in himself.. what he realizes about himself.. and that he's constantly fully aware and completely content & satisfied.. It's not only important to come off as more attractive and genuine.. but it also makes for a better relationship..

So how do I do that? I haven't really learned anything. I answered some question which really mean nothing to me. I don't know what else to say. Though, as far as the debate goes...I agree and think that I need some help with social interaction. I missed something back in high school because I just stuck around the same 2 or 3 friends...yea, I was one of those people. Now, your story example with the girl that you liked was interesting but isn't like mine all though similar. I one day simply walked into class and saw her. The world stood still since that day. I was scared shit less to do anything about it even though she sent signals like a landing strip for an airplane. 2 years of waiting for me she managed to pull out...can you believe that? I saw her holding back her tears sometimes. and she was cute on her own cause clearly other guys were trying as well. 2 years after all of a sudden she decides it is time to start dating, I am sure it has something to do with her bullshit girlfriends telling her that this is just nothing but a crush..women buy into that crap. As I walk past her I notice that spark in her eye is gone, she doesn't care anymore...nothing hurt worse than that. The guy she starts dating is completely using these tricks, the way he approached her and everything was fake as shit. She bought into it though, she was tired of waiting. Was I angry at him? for a little while...but than my hatred turned towards her..than when I realized she waited two years...the hatred turned towards me. So years later I thought I would be over it, I would get another chance...but nothing...no one like her, no one to replace her, and only haunting thoughts of her and the mistakes I made...and the dreams of what should have been. No one understand the miserable existence of a love life I had to lead. Funny thing is, I have had no problem pushing myself in life in every other category where these other players have usually failed. The guy she was dating now works at a hot dog stand, when I saw him recently he remembered me...he seemed embarrassed about something..I have no clue why as I didn't really know him...I asked him how she is doing figuring he will have no clue that I really didn't talk to her and apparently he wasn't dating her anymore. That didn't help at all as than I knew she was just being played by men because of me. I am making awesome money, I have a rewarding and prestiges career, and I still have a great family. I can't forget the way she looked at me though. Now I don't know what to do...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone. I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

sorry about the rambling, I can't believe I said all this.


It must be mentally exhausting to suspect the world is full of game-players that you have to out-maneuver. I find it much more pleasurable to avoid those kind of people, which doesn't strike me as being all that hard to do.

You just have to protect yourself against them, try actually competing with them. That is far more frustrating.

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 12:20 PM
Quick point.. OV does NOT have a "problem"..

Fergodsake GS, get over yourself already. I never said OV had a problem, it is just a site that has some interesting information about how to change one's thinking. The url of the site is immaterial, the info may or may not be useful but its data.

The evil comment was a joke (hence the wink). You are right, tho. I did deliberately psych you (only a tiny amount, really) & I'm sorry; its unpleasant tho, isn't it? Point made? I think so.

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 12:50 PM
So how do I do that? I haven't really learned anything. I answered some question which really mean nothing to me. I don't know what else to say.

LOL. Not laughing at you, OV, just that I predicted this comment.


Though, as far as the debate goes...I agree and think that I need some help with social interaction. I missed something back in high school because I just stuck around the same 2 or 3 friends...yea, I was one of those people.

OV, I *really* understand this. Deja vu, lol. JOIN something, a group, something you enjoy that you will meet ppl. A dojo, a music group, a cooking/art/language class. I know it sounds hokey, but Toastmasters groups are REALLY good for building up speaking confidence (also good for your career). These are just ideas I have, others may have better/more suitable ones?


As I walk past her I notice that spark in her eye is gone, she doesn't care anymore...nothing hurt worse than that. The guy she starts dating is completely using these tricks, the way he approached her and everything was fake as shit. She bought into it though, she was tired of waiting. Was I angry at him? for a little while...but than my hatred turned towards her..than when I realized she waited two years...the hatred turned towards me.

OV, she was young, you were young. You made a mistake. Forgive yourself, and her for crissake already. Let it GO, man.


So years later I thought I would be over it, I would get another chance...but nothing...no one like her, no one to replace her, and only haunting thoughts of her and the mistakes I made...and the dreams of what should have been. No one understand the miserable existence of a love life I had to lead. Funny thing is, I have had no problem pushing myself in life in every other category where these other players have usually failed. The guy she was dating now works at a hot dog stand, when I saw him recently he remembered me...he seemed embarrassed about something..I have no clue why as I didn't really know him...I asked him how she is doing figuring he will have no clue that I really didn't talk to her and apparently he wasn't dating her anymore. That didn't help at all as than I knew she was just being played by men because of me.

Okay, OV, this is full of all kinds of wrong-thinking. It may be your feelings, but your logic around them is totally messed up. I'm sure others will be able to explain this to you. Be back later tho to help out too if I can.


I am making awesome money, I have a rewarding and prestiges career, and I still have a great family.

These are your your strengths. You have more also.


...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone.

You didn't have ANYTHING with her. Again, this is wrong-thinking.


I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

Again, wrong thinking OV. Makes me think of that Gretzky hockey quote: 'You will miss 100% of the shots you never take'.


Sorry about the rambling, I can't believe I said all this.

Its okay, OV, we all really like you. Everyone wants to try to help if we can. Lots of diverse experience on here, so hopefully something will click. But ultimately, this will have to come from you.

Mish
20-02-08, 01:40 PM
I can't forget the way she looked at me though. Now I don't know what to do...there is a part of me that wants to just learn some trick to get to know women FAST and just basically screw with them...no remorse...I have had none from her or anyone. I don't feel like a chance for a LTR exists in the first place.

OV, what might help you is the "cave man" (I.e. The way I get after a few shots and pints of amber fluid in a club) You act as if the world is part of your cave and is there solely for you to explore and play with. When you approach an attractive girl you approach with confidence and certainty as if she's already into you. Doesn't matter what she looks like or who or what she thinks she is. She's lucky, because you happen to find her attractive and grace her with your attention. Once you think like that, your whole attitude changes. You can get dozens of girls like her just like that if you want, but what the hell you're a nice guy so you'll do her a favour and talk to her. You no longer worry about right and wrong, you're no longer nervous or bound by your own consciousness, you just act natural with certainty that what you do is awesome. You project confidence, dominance, certainty that you are a master of your own domain , you are reliable and you can get things done. And most importantly you give everything a shot. This attitude radiates well and lots of girls seems to pick up on it and be attracted to it. Don't ask me why, just know that it works :)

GrkScorp
20-02-08, 02:14 PM
The evil comment was a joke (hence the wink). You are right, tho. I did deliberately psych you (only a tiny amount, really) & I'm sorry; its unpleasant tho, isn't it? Point made? I think so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Indi, and I mean no disrespect from this, but as cute and amusing as it is to watch you think you've pulled one.. my entire focus is on OV for this thread.. but if it puts a smile on your face.. the least I can do is play along "oh! you got me!" :P

Now.. back to OV..

OV, i'm going to throw out something your way.. and take it as you see fit.. but from what you've said so far..

It was really interesting to notice that she was the most embarrassing moment of your life, and understandably so.. But what was really interesting, was when you said you were scared sh*tless, even though she sent you more signals than a landing strip.. Trying to rationalize this "fear", naturally one would look at what you'd have to suffer a loss from.. What reasonable damage you'd suffer.. And as you spend more time trying to think about it, you can help but notice that you can't really find a meaningful rationalization.. In fact, when you think about it, realistically, you had nothing to suffer a loss of.. The issue then popped up of you considering yourself as not being a risk-taker.. I have to admit.. I was just as convinced as you at first.. But then I took a moment to consider what it really means to attempt and finish a Master's degree.. I remember what it felt like to first apply to the Master's program.. every class I took carried with it the risk of failure, the risk of destroying my GPA, the risk of not finishing the program, not finding a job, losing potential income, and so on and so forth.. But we did it.. YOU did it.. and when you did.. How did you feel? Accomplished..

I struggled to make some sense of this inconsistency, until I looked deep into what it ment to list "Success" as one of your best qualities, and place it first.. Success, is a state of mind.. There's a vision, a goal, and a plan on how to reach that goal.. that's the basis for successful thinking.. And like you've demonstrated, that's in fact a very rare (it really is) and admirable quality to be proud of.. but not because of the (outcome), but because of the state of mind! You have the state of mind it takes to be successful in not just what you naturally put your mind to focus on.. but ANYTHING you let your mind focus on.. If you wanted to build a house, you could probably do it.. If you wanted to start a company, you could probably do it.. and if you wanted to attract women, you'll notice how easily you can shift that focus and be able to do it..

So, what's holding you back? In short, YOU are.. but for slightly more subtle reasons than you'd think.. The second quality on your list is "respectful of others".. While you think about what exactly that means to you, I found it interesting how you described that girl's ex-bf.. He was largely game-playing, non-genuine, unsuccessful, and in one sense, disrespectful.. This was obviously exactly the type of guy you didn't want to be, even if it ment getting her! Why? Because you identify yourself as "respectful of others".. and if those are the "means" to that end, you'd rather not.. That's understandable.. and I strongly agree.. "outer game" is novice.. "inner game" is where the magic & power of "attraction" lies..

But why the freeze-up? For two years? That's the gist of this whole tango OV.. Your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the qualities that make you great.. YES! You still ARE "respectful of others".. but what exactly does that mean? Surely it doesn't mean not talking to others because you want to be polite and not be rude by "bothering" them.. Quiet and respectful are not the same.. Respect is something that takes place actively, not passively.. respect is being aware of the feelings of others, the weaknesses of others, and having the ability to tear them apart, to toy with them, but instead, being responsible and considerate enough to choose to refrain from doing so.. To a large degree, being respectful to others is not congruent to being timid.. Humans are social creatures, in need of affection, attention, validation, and love.. Would you consider it respectful to see someone in need of such things, and deprive them of even the most basic forms of affection?

Obviously.. not.. and that all becomes apparent, and ties in completely with the moment you felt great about yourself.. The first time you had sex.. On a very basic level, yes, your human needs were met for the first time, you reached a milestone in your life, and were able to enjoy that experience with a special person.. But there are two additional layers to this.. The first is the thrill of success.. don't forget, you're a scan/sum type.. your mind's model of learning takes information in bulk, it chops out details like a butcher.. you're quite content with that being the cost of efficient thinking.. But you noticed the process unfold before your eyes, the events that led to sex.. It satisfied your desire to set out to get what you want.. and to get it.. (your successful, state of mind).. But what's more interesting.. and I don't know if you'll realize this right away, or if it may take some time before it sinks in.. to notice your desire to be "respectful of others".. For years you misunderstood the meaning of this quality you identified yourself with.. up until this point.. it took a while.. sex felt awkward initially, but then started to become fun.. you started to feel a sense of fulfilling the needs of the other person.. affection, attention, validation, love, and at that moment.. sexual lust..

GrkScorp
20-02-08, 02:45 PM
So, naturally.. i'm sure you can start to slowly see what's been holding you back..

All these years.. perhaps by accident, perhaps by cultural programming, maybe religion or parenting, or even just a simple misunderstanding of what it ment exactly to be "respectful of others".. you held yourself back, because when you identified yourself as "respectful of others".. you took it to mean not like those other pig/dog men.. but in doing so.. at some point, and to some degree.. you crossed the line.. you pushed the meaning of the phrase so much that you took it to mean "reserved, polite, nice"..

That was natural.. you didn't want to associate yourself with feeling like those other guys who you considered to be jerks.. But what you perhaps overlooked was that these guys were jerks for maybe many OTHER reasons.. In doing so.. for those two years.. the girl looked at you, practically begged you.. but you stood frozen.. NOT because you didn't have that (success, state of mind) to get what you wanted.. NOT because you didn't deserve someone like her.. and NOT for any other reason your mind can't begin to come up with.. the reason was simple.. You simply didn't want to feel and come off as those guys you didn't want to associate yourself with.. You didn't know what to do.. so you thought you were just being respectful by not being like those other guys..

I know it's a lot to take in.. but the first thing you may find interesting is that, the first person you felt hate towards was "him".. as you first started to feel a mix of frustration and confusion for why she would fall for someone like him.. at some point, you realized that it wasn't his fault.. you then temporarily felt hate towards her; that's understandable.. she was the source of those bad emotions at that moment.. but you eventually found yourself finally feeling hate for yourself.. unable to rationalize it fully and completely.. until now.. It's amazing how the mind sometimes speaks in code.. but it never fails to cry out.. and yours didn't.. you felt that hate.. and it felt very real.. but now that you think back on it, it's understandable how you almost can't help but laugh at it..

Since that time.. you've had success in ALL areas of your life.. you've realized that you do take risks, risks that bear serious consequences if failure takes place.. and you've also seen the rewards from taking those risks.. be it an advanced degree.. a successful job.. earning potential.. or sex.. the important thing to notice for yourself is that you've actually already seen the change you want for yourself..

And today.. I can only hope you've started to realize what "respectful of others" really means to you.. This is a lot to take in for one day OV.. but if you're reading this far down.. you'll be happy to know that there's not much left to say.. It's really up to you at this point.. We're miles away.. and I can't tell exactly when you're going to start feeling this change.. It seems to me that you've already started feeling it.. but what's really important is how it seems to YOU.. i'm not going to lie.. these things do take time.. there are a few people who feel that realization about themselves instantly.. (I hate those people too, we all do).. but for normal people, it does take a couple of days to sink in.. just like anything I guess.. But after it does.. you shouldn't just sit there feeling great about yourself.. I mean, yes, take a moment and do that.. but go out there and explore for yourself what it really means to be "respectful of others"..

Like you've heard me say before..

"I hear, and I know.. I see, and I understand.. I do, and I learn"

Best,

GrkScorp

IndiReloaded
20-02-08, 03:11 PM
Okay GS, you aren't getting this. I promised OV I would back off you, but you need to understand your format is wrong for his mindset. Besides, everything you posted, all that psychobabble, I already summarized (w/a lot fewer words, lol) in a post in another thread earlier.

If you really want to help OV (and I can't in this, b/c frankly I'm waay off the dating market else I would) here's the format:

1. Provide a concrete example.

2. BRIEFLY explain why the example works and/or what he might expect from this.

He's a scientist. Scientists already know how to DO by experiment. You're not telling him anything he doesn't already know. He wants to know WHAT TO DO, as many different examples as possible so he can pick/choose from them. Did you not understand how quickly he tried that 'back off' technique w/that girl in the other thread? Mish gave a good example above; this is the kind of help, I think, that OV is looking for.

Lemme know if I'm wrong, OV, but I think that's about it in a nutshell.

Good luck guys, and good night. :)

Charlie Boy II
20-02-08, 08:17 PM
only scorp could pack so much bullshit into one thread

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 03:45 AM
1. Provide a concrete example.

2. BRIEFLY explain why the example works and/or what he might expect from this.

He's a scientist. Scientists already know how to DO by experiment. You're not telling him anything he doesn't already know. He wants to know WHAT TO DO, as many different examples as possible so he can pick/choose from them.

First of all.. the whole point was so this is not a "tactics" thread.. OV knows that if all he wants are tactics, all he needs to do is ask..

I could sit here for weeks and give him examples and case studies of what's happened with me and other guys.. why it happened.. the subcommunication and thought process that was taking place.. blah blah.. but that wouldn't really help..

That's just throwing tactics at OV in hopes that he'll remember a handfull and apply a couple at the right moment.. In short, that's not OV being himself..

That's why I advocate "Inner" game.. (I think the word "game" is throwing you off).. There's nothing fake about inner game.. And yes.. it's very frustrating for guys to go through the process.. women go through it much better.. guys want hard facts, quick little tactics they can use on the field that have already been tested to work.. and they overlook the value of this..

Honestly.. the reason I strongly advocate Inner game is because when OV, but not just OV, anyone for that matter.. crushes those limiting beliefs they have about themselves, those misconceptions, or anything that's holding them back.. well, then they're simply not held back anymore..

In OV, I could see a situation where i'd break down kino to a science for him.. and i'm sure Sphinx would do the same.. but something inside OV would either prevent him from using it, or would have him hesitate and use it after that open window.. or worse! he might just use it dogmatically when the vibe isn't right at all..

That's the tragedy with going caveman on american girls.. European & Latin american girls are all for it.. if they're in the states, one thing they miss and die for is a MAN.. but personally, I wouldn't go caveman on an american girl until at least 30mins into the interaction.. (and after plenty of kino build-up).. there are some women though where you can just tell, they want to be cavemanned..

The only part of Inner game that's left for OV is when he starts to feel what we've talked about.. and after he sees the difference it makes in his life.. even the little things, especially the little things.. and he gets a little comfortable with that realization.. (because what's important to realize is that defenition and interpretation of what he considers to be "respectful").. but when he's comfortable with that.. the capstone is "state of mind" & "mentality".. which is sort of like the caveman example..

To be honest with you.. I used to be a total push-over nice guy.. and it wasn't until DeAngelo stressed the importance of Inner game that I changed.. But my realization didn't take place with women.. it took place in the NYC subway system.. NYC was a playgroud to break out of nice-guy-overly-polite-push-over mode.. People would walk on the sidewalk and try and walk on the right side (where i'd have to walk by).. but instead of move out of the way (something I used to do before).. I would stand there, look them in the eye as if to tell them "you're going to have to move, because i'm not moving, you have your side of the sidewalk, this one is mine".. And you know what? I was blown away, but EVERYONE would move.. there were some spiteful people which found it hard on their ego.. but instead of not moving, they would just try and brush arms or bump shoulders while walking past me.. On the subway.. (I would have to push through and excuse myself amung the masses).. but now I would just walk strait down.. Looking at everyone in the eye, then the floor, as if to tell them to move.. to imply it would be rude/uncivilized of them if they didn't.. and in a non-comfrontational manner, they all moved aside.. Something so little, so small, so simple.. was actually life changing..

In college, law school, work, and even with friends.. everyone looked towards me when they needed someone assertive.. friends walked behind me as I paved the way for them through the masses of NYC.. co-workers looked to me as a means to get some change around the office.. in college and law school.. other students looked towards me for leadership (something I actually never had in HS).. and the very last thing that followed from all of that.. was this attitude and mentality that women picked up on like fish formula.. (which means they also pick up on the wrong mentality like 7 month old garbage)

That's what I learned.. and that's mostly what a lot of guys learned.. everyone had their own story, their own history, their own experience.. but in the end, the issue was very similar.. From a young age, we did the mistake of associating "good & nice" with "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet".. maybe because of religion, or parenting, or harsh schooling, or simply not wanting to be like those guys we considered "jerks" who were anything BUT "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet"..

And as I realized that.. I noticed that this alone (inner game) was the entire game.. all other tactics/strategy/games were dwarfed in the face of inner game.. this was powerful.. because it was genuine.. because it was complete and total self-awareness.. from that came confidence (real confidence).. came assertiveness, a powerful pressence that radiated like an aura everyone could pick up on.. and microcal (microcalibration) where people became easy to read & understand.. AFTER that point, were games/tactics/strategy of any use.. because before that, I would have simply come off like a bad actor saying lines from a script he was reading for the first time.. but after that.. you're just a guy who's fully aware of the world around him.. the people around him.. the thoughts they're thinking.. the motives they have.. and they all seem like clay.. waiting to be molded.. and the "tactics" you learn from that point.. are much like your "tools" to mold these balls of clay into anything you want.. (that's IF you want to mold them).. but notice that even if you don't have these tactics at your disposal.. you still see the world in such a way.. and honestly.. that ALONE.. can give you the results you're looking for..

IndiReloaded
21-02-08, 07:15 AM
First of all.. the whole point was so this is not a "tactics" thread.. OV knows that if all he wants are tactics, all he needs to do is ask..

He did. Explicitly. You're just not paying attention, GS, you've gone off on this psych tangent that is all about you despite your claims to the contrary. You are so keen to share your knowledge you don't understand that's not what was asked for.

The following are ALL from OV's original post in this thread:


Whatever it is I have been doing wrong I want to know.


If the conversation is going no where what do I do? what do I say? and how do I say it?


Just maybe this thread will be helpful to all the people making threads along the lines of "I like a girl but how do I approach her, what do I do, and what and how do I say it?"


Is there anything I can actually say to this girl when I see her tomorrow to regain my interest and maybe get things moving?


I know everyone has some kind of experience or idea to add, so you better tell it and add it or burn in hell for all eternity haha.

Sounds to me like he's asking for specific examples.

I don't think you need to generate pages on this, GS (please, God no), just pick a few examples that explain some general principles & might give him some ideas about the questions he asked. Like what Mish did, that was a good one.

Mish
21-02-08, 07:33 AM
Like what Mish did, that was a good one.

:emot133:

...........................................

IndiReloaded
21-02-08, 08:06 AM
Honestly.. the reason I strongly advocate Inner game is because when OV, but not just OV, anyone for that matter.. crushes those limiting beliefs they have about themselves, those misconceptions, or anything that's holding them back.. well, then they're simply not held back anymore..

In OV, I could see a situation where i'd break down kino to a science for him.. and i'm sure Sphinx would do the same.. but something inside OV would either prevent him from using it, or would have him hesitate and use it after that open window.. or worse! he might just use it dogmatically when the vibe isn't right at all..

But again, GS, you are playing psychologist here & that's not what was asked for. Why not let him experiment w/a few techniques & he can ASK if he wants the deeper explanation. You're not giving him credit for being able to work this out himself. Afterall, its HIS experience, right?


To be honest with you.. I used to be a total push-over nice guy.. and it wasn't until DeAngelo stressed the importance of Inner game that I changed.. But my realization didn't take place with women.. it took place in the NYC subway system.. NYC was a playgroud to break out of nice-guy-overly-polite-push-over mode.. People would walk on the sidewalk and try and walk on the right side (where i'd have to walk by).. but instead of move out of the way (something I used to do before).. I would stand there, look them in the eye as if to tell them "you're going to have to move, because i'm not moving, you have your side of the sidewalk, this one is mine".. And you know what? I was blown away, but EVERYONE would move.. there were some spiteful people which found it hard on their ego.. but instead of not moving, they would just try and brush arms or bump shoulders while walking past me.. On the subway.. (I would have to push through and excuse myself amung the masses).. but now I would just walk strait down.. Looking at everyone in the eye, then the floor, as if to tell them to move.. to imply it would be rude/uncivilized of them if they didn't.. and in a non-comfrontational manner, they all moved aside.. Something so little, so small, so simple.. was actually life changing..

In college, law school, work, and even with friends.. everyone looked towards me when they needed someone assertive.. friends walked behind me as I paved the way for them through the masses of NYC.. co-workers looked to me as a means to get some change around the office.. in college and law school.. other students looked towards me for leadership (something I actually never had in HS).. and the very last thing that followed from all of that.. was this attitude and mentality that women picked up on like fish formula.. (which means they also pick up on the wrong mentality like 7 month old garbage)

That's what I learned.. and that's mostly what a lot of guys learned.. everyone had their own story, their own history, their own experience.. but in the end, the issue was very similar.. From a young age, we did the mistake of associating "good & nice" with "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet".. maybe because of religion, or parenting, or harsh schooling, or simply not wanting to be like those guys we considered "jerks" who were anything BUT "weak, submissive, reserved, quiet"..

And as I realized that.. I noticed that this alone (inner game) was the entire game.. all other tactics/strategy/games were dwarfed in the face of inner game.. this was powerful.. because it was genuine.. because it was complete and total self-awareness.. from that came confidence (real confidence).. came assertiveness, a powerful pressence that radiated like an aura everyone could pick up on.. and microcal (microcalibration) where people became easy to read & understand.. AFTER that point, were games/tactics/strategy of any use.. because before that, I would have simply come off like a bad actor saying lines from a script he was reading for the first time.. but after that.. you're just a guy who's fully aware of the world around him.. the people around him.. the thoughts they're thinking.. the motives they have.. and they all seem like clay.. waiting to be molded.. and the "tactics" you learn from that point.. are much like your "tools" to mold these balls of clay into anything you want.. (that's IF you want to mold them).. but notice that even if you don't have these tactics at your disposal.. you still see the world in such a way.. and honestly.. that ALONE.. can give you the results you're looking for..

This sounds like you had a wonderful epiphany, GS. That's terrific & I'm glad for you. Obviously this method taught you something valuable & you want to share that w/others. That's admirable. But consider that not everyone wants, nor needs, to immerse themselves in all this theory. Esp if that's not what they asked for. One doesn't need to understand the mechanism of aspirin to know it stops a headache.

You can't force someone to be interested in all this 'self actualization'. Its great that you've evolved. But you first needed to be convinced that the methods were actually worth thinking about right? I doubt you took someone else's word for it. So. Everything in its time, GS.

Anyway, I seem to have become OVs 'thread police' on this, so I'll finish here.

Junket
21-02-08, 08:11 AM
Self-government means less work for me!

vashti
21-02-08, 08:22 AM
Explaining the mechanism of the aspirin would require less space than one of scorps posts.

IndiReloaded
21-02-08, 08:30 AM
Explaining the mechanism of the aspirin would require less space than one of scorps posts.

True. But I'm starting to believe that he means well. ;)

Ah, hell OV. If you can't find a nice girl, move to Vancouver & become my poolboy. You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper. BlueSum knows lots of folk & I manage a dept with over 100 women all around age 20 - 30, many of them single. We'll make you forget Ms. Whatshername. ;)

misombra
21-02-08, 08:38 AM
damn if i was ov i would jump on that offer.

DoesntMatter
21-02-08, 11:28 AM
You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper.

What does your husband do? Was he the chemist? What type of chemistry is he into?

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 11:43 AM
Anyway, I seem to have become OVs 'thread police' on this, so I'll finish here.

Well.. whatever makes you happy Indi..

But actually.. I told OV to create this forum and title it Inner Game.. and that this forum would be used to improve him internally.. INTERNALLY!

I was going to give him what Jeffries gave DeAngelo.. and what he gave thousands of other guys, including me.. And HE made it clear to me that HE wanted that.. the second he created this thread.. because that's what this thread was about..

Did he have OTHER questions which he took the time to ask during this thread? YES.. but I also made it clear that these were small distractions that we would take care of later.. when time was of the essence, I answered the questions he had.. but the mutual goal from the start was Inner Game..

Then it was YOU who came along.. playing the role of "thead police" as you pointed out (i'm proud of you).. even though it sounds more like OV's mommy.. but he doesn't need a mommy.. he's a big boy now.. it HE has something to say.. i'm sure he can say if for himself.. he doesn't need anyone else to say it..

So you see.. it's YOU.. that's created an issue.. everyone else just PM-ed if they wanted tactics.. for what books they should read.. for what they should do.. etc.. OV created a thread because HE wanted INNER change.. and in this same thread, simply took the opportunity to ask a million other questions which would have led us all over the place.. but the very creation and point of an Inner Game thread.. is.. well.. Inner Game..

Now Indi, why don't we stop this back and forth pitter patter.. Honestly, tell me what you REALLY want, and we'll work it out.. If you prefer to PM, you can do so.. But I like comming online and helping people improve their lives, get over any problems, and just having a good time.. That's the beauty of the LF community.. so i'm all ears for any suggestions you have so we can keep it that way..

TheSphinx
21-02-08, 12:25 PM
You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them)...


What type of chemistry is he into?

Sounds to me like chemistry of the sexual variety.

~Sphinx

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 12:59 PM
Sounds to me like chemistry of the sexual variety.

OMG! now that you said that.. I saw this movie once when I was younger, about some freak science project where these two guys put some ooze on the pages of magazines, and the women came to life.. but they had to be kissed or else they'd turn back to ooze..

And there was this other one where they created the perfect girl via a computer and brought her to life.. Really old movies.. I think 80's films..

I loved those films.. I forgot the titles of them though..

TheSphinx
21-02-08, 01:03 PM
I think Weird Science was the popular film following the above plot line.

~Sphinx

miSSleepy
21-02-08, 01:38 PM
True. But I'm starting to believe that he means well. ;)


Ughh, whether he means well or not has little to do with it. He's been brainwashed by literature and theory, his posts are probably filled with plaigiarism. I just spend almost 3 hours reading this damn thread and my head hurts.

It's not so much a game as a COURTING PROCESS. Yes there are things to do and say that will attract interest and make you seem valuable, but being an arrogant prick will only work (maybe) in the short-run. Eventually, if you're an insecure guy using GS's methods, you're true nature will come through.

For f***cks sake then - why not work at improving yourself internally instead of manipulating people and situations???

IndiReloaded
21-02-08, 02:19 PM
Honestly, tell me what you REALLY want, and we'll work it out..

Actually, GS, you're already doing it, all by yourself.

Only-virgins
21-02-08, 03:37 PM
Damn what have I missed?



Ah, hell OV. If you can't find a nice girl, move to Vancouver & become my poolboy. You can work in hubby's lab, hit on all the hot girls in there (he's got a truckload of them) & be a happy little camper. BlueSum knows lots of folk & I manage a dept with over 100 women all around age 20 - 30, many of them single. We'll make you forget Ms. Whatshername. ;)

Stop kidding around, I might take you up on that offer! haha 100 20-30 women who most are single...damn, I live in the wrong place :mad:

Pool boy for Indi.....biology...pool boy for indi....biology.....tough choice.....I'll just be a pool boy. lol :)


OV, what might help you is the "cave man" (I.e. The way I get after a few shots and pints of amber fluid in a club) You act as if the world is part of your cave and is there solely for you to explore and play with. When you approach an attractive girl you approach with confidence and certainty as if she's already into you. Doesn't matter what she looks like or who or what she thinks she is. She's lucky, because you happen to find her attractive and grace her with your attention. Once you think like that, your whole attitude changes. You can get dozens of girls like her just like that if you want, but what the hell you're a nice guy so you'll do her a favour and talk to her. You no longer worry about right and wrong, you're no longer nervous or bound by your own consciousness, you just act natural with certainty that what you do is awesome. You project confidence, dominance, certainty that you are a master of your own domain , you are reliable and you can get things done. And most importantly you give everything a shot. This attitude radiates well and lots of girls seems to pick up on it and be attracted to it. Don't ask me why, just know that it works :)

I know, this is harder done than said. Acting confident and feeling it for real is different. I am slowly building myself up there. I can't just tell myself that she is lucky to be talking to me. The conversation just won't be smooth enough. Though you make really good points.

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 04:03 PM
why not work at improving yourself internally instead of manipulating people and situations???

Exactly! and if we had to name this internal improvement of ones self, and call it something a little more formal.. I don't know.. something different from manipulation of people and situations.. something distinct and seperate from "Outer game".. what would be a fitting name? :surprised

INNER game perhaps? :P

We've been in agreement all along! This was the point of this thread!

Only-virgins
21-02-08, 04:05 PM
I know it's a lot to take in.. but the first thing you may find interesting is that, the first person you felt hate towards was "him".. as you first started to feel a mix of frustration and confusion for why she would fall for someone like him.. at some point, you realized that it wasn't his fault.. you then temporarily felt hate towards her; that's understandable.. she was the source of those bad emotions at that moment.. but you eventually found yourself finally feeling hate for yourself.. unable to rationalize it fully and completely.. until now.. It's amazing how the mind sometimes speaks in code.. but it never fails to cry out.. and yours didn't.. you felt that hate.. and it felt very real.. but now that you think back on it, it's understandable how you almost can't help but laugh at it..

I'm only quoting this for length saving. I don't laugh at it. It has made me miserable for a while. I do feel better about myself. I am trying to realize if it has been some of the things you said or of it was the ego boost I got from seeing her ex working at a lame hot dog stand..not to put anyone down with a job such as that but you get my point. Something is missing still though, maybe just the moment or opportunity for me to really motivate myself to go for someone. Anyways, there is this cute girl I want to talk to in class and I am going to see if I have what it takes to approach her....hell, she should be happy she gets to talk to me right? :D I'm smart, intelligent, and I always have good advice ...

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 05:12 PM
Anyways, there is this cute girl I want to talk to in class and I am going to see if I have what it takes to approach her....hell, she should be happy she gets to talk to me right? :D I'm smart, intelligent, and I always have good advice ...

Slip a note by her one day as you're sitting next to her in class one day.. make sure you do it when class is going on..

"I'm bored, and if you're still reading.. so are you.. ok, no laughing or else no more notes for you..

I have a friend who uses cheezy lines on people.. He was telling me some of them the other day.. and yes, they're cheezy, but some of them are actually hilarious..

What's the funniest line you've heard?

- Hi, my name is (your name).. what's yours?
- Did it hurt alot? When you fell from heaven?
- Hey, i've seen you around before, what other classes do you take?
- Are you Jamaican? Caz Ja-makin-me-crazy!
- You're not ugly, so I thought, ehh, why not give you a chance..
- I have my library card, mind if I check you out?
- I'm bored.. I have a friend.. What's the funniest line you've heard?"

(It's supposed to be funny)

The worst that can happen is she laughs.. and you have a fluff conversation laughing about it.. (be ready to stack with stories and other funny/fun stuff).. and she stops talking or class ends.. (in which case you just broke the ice.. now you're this fun/funny guy in her class.. WELCOME TO HER RADAR!)

The best case.. she laughs.. you have a fluff convo.. you stack with stories, games, tricks (fun/funny/interesting).. she responds.. walks out of class with you.. (and like i've stressed, be the first to leave.. YOU tell her it was fun, but you have an other class.. that's it.. no need to elaborate.. you're going to see her again! She's not going anywhere.. she'll be there again next class.. where you can re-stack.. and get her # to meet up after class.. or tell her to come with you for lunch via "do you have class after this? I'm going to get some lunch.. why don't you come with me to get some lunch.. I have to show you this memory trick..")

If you do NOTHING.. then the BEST and WORST outcomes are the same.. NOTHING.. but you're better than that now..

Bonus: (Memory Trick - Peg System)

1. Tree
2. Switch
3. Stool
4. Car
5. Glove
6. Gun
7. Dice
8. Skates
9. Cat
10. Bowling
11. Goal
12. Eggs
13. Witch
14. Ring
15. Paycheck
16. Candy
17. Magazine
18. Truck
19. Golf Bag
20. Cigaretts

This is your list of 20 items.. She can make her own list, and you can memorize all 20 items in order, from 1-to-20.. from 20-to-1.. and any number at random she wants.. Here's how it works..

We represent things in our mind using systems.. For instance.. the number (1) is nothing but a concept.. and idea.. a notion.. It can be number or items.. or it can represent order/position.. The symbol we choose to represent this idea is "1".. Well, from now on.. when you think of the concept/idea/notion of (1).. I want you to visualize a Tree.. It stands alone, upright and tall, much like the number.. (2) is a Switch, it can either be ON or OFF, you only have two choices.. (3) is a tri-pod Stool, three legs.. (4) is a Car, 4 doors, tires, etc.. (5) the number of fingers on a Glove.. (6) the number of bullets in a magnum Gun.. (7) the most probably outcome with Dice.. (8) figure 8's with ice-skates, or 8 wheels on roller-skates.. (9) Cat has 9 lives.. (10) number of bowling pins.. (11) number of players in soccer, or you can visualize the two posts on a goal as the number.. (12) a dozen Eggs.. (13) unlucky number, think October, Halloween, Witch! (14) most common Gold standard 14k, Ring! (15) you get paid on the 1st and 15th of each month.. (16) Sweet 16, think Candy! (17) name of a popular Magazine.. (18) number of wheels on a Truck.. (19) number of clubs in a professional Golf Bag.. (20) number of cigaretts in a pack..

Congrats! You know your own list of Items.. But the object is to know hers.. In this memory representational system.. the tool of choice is "visualization".. each number is a concept/idea/notion which will be captured and represented by an image/visualization you can link to what you call a "number".. When she gives you an item.. you will take that item and associate it with your visual representation of that number..

Example: I recently did this on a waitress.. last Friday! Here's her list:

1. Table, 2. Phone, 3. Glass, 4. TV, 5. Hat, 6. Beer Glass, 7. Salt & Pepper, 8. Menu, 9. Trash Can, 10. Car, 11. Keychain, 12. Red Lipstick, 13. Tampon, 14. Sunglasses, 15. Stilettos, 16. Spoon, 17. Straw, 18. Condoms, 19. Diaphragm, 20. Boat

How the hell do I still remember? well.. that's because she's really cute.. but with respect to the Peg System.. When she wrote "table" for (1).. I visualized a Tree, and on that tree, it was growing instead of fruits, Tables! For (2) A lightswitch which had a phone as a cover.. for (3) A Stool made out of Glass.. (4) A Car with a TV inside.. (5) A gentleman putting on his Gloves to take off his Hat.. (6) A hill-billy shooting Beer Glasses with his Gun.. (7) Salt-Pepper shakers that looked like Dice.. (8) Hooters girls rolling on Skates to give you your Menu.. (9) Cats next to a Trash can.. (10) My ex-gf throwing a bowling ball through the windshield of my car.. (11) a keychain of a soccer Goal.. (12) A kiss mark with red lipstick on an Egg shell.. (13) A b*tchy Witch on her period, riding a tampon.. (14) A rap video with guys wearing gold Rings and Sunglasses.. (15) The waitress saving her Paycheck to buy Stilettos.. (16) A chocolate Candy spoon.. (17) Jessica Alba on the cover of a Magazine drinking from a straw.. (18) A Trojan Truck full of condoms.. (19) A Golfer needing to control his breathing via his diaphragm before each shot.. (20) my father smoking Cigaretts on his boat..

You then ask her to tell you YOUR list first.. 1-to-20.. and then backwards.. and then "what was #?".. She won't be able to do it.. (if she can, she's a keeper!).. You then give her both lists to hold on to.. And tell her all items on HER list, 1-to-20, backwards.. then let her ask you any number.. Until you get either a "wow, that's crazy!" or a "how the hell do you do that?".. You then tell her YOUR list, just for fun.. and make note that you memorized "in perfect order" 40 items.. from both lists.. (tell her you're tired now.. you're a guy.. you need at least 30minutes to recharge your batteries.. and you'll tell her later..)

Why later? Well, you're going to see her in class later.. Instead of OFFERING to tell her "next time".. you can now test to see "gauge" her interest in you.. If it's there.. she'll say.. "hey, you still didn't show me how to do that memory thing".. or "you still need to show me that memory trick works"..

Only-virgins
21-02-08, 05:18 PM
Fast post GS. but it is a piano class I decided to take. Kind of missed the classroom you know? Class is in 2 days. I will have time to read that tomorrow GS, thanks, I am so tired right now it is insane. Like being sober and yet drunk. Just wanted to throw the piano thing in....I already have one thing in common with her :) night people...till tomorrow. That memory thing sounds fun haha. First I have to work on getting her to lunch.

GrkScorp
21-02-08, 05:33 PM
Great!

You can re-edit the list on the note.. (no talking during piano class!).. and list the 1st and 3rd things as..

- You look like someone who likes music, I can tell you have great taste

- You know how I know you have great taste? Because you think i'm funny.. Let me take a wild guess here, but you strike me as someone who would like the piano

(Remember, it's supposed to be a joke.. it's supposed to be funny.. that's the object of the note.. it's NOT a cheezy collection of pick-up lines.. it pokes fun at them.. with a funny punch at the end.. the subcommunication of making fun of pick-up lines is that you're better than that.. you're more socially intelligent than that.. you see her as more than that and don't see her as someone cheap "how most women feel when they have guys use cheezy lines on them, and cat-call them")

Women in piano classes.. hmm.. interesting.. challenging..

Not really an issue though if you're willing to open before class starts, or after class ends.. (Recommend before class starts! and pick up again after class ends) But you CAN'T open with a note if class is not going on.. that just SCREAMS "weak, wussy, scared, shy, intimidated by her, feels like he's not worthy enough for her, etc"

Mish
21-02-08, 06:15 PM
Hehe, Scorp and his bag of tricks. Nice one.

OV, practice it well, if you stuff it up half way through you may crush and burn ;)

IndiReloaded
22-02-08, 06:53 AM
And there was this other one where they created the perfect girl via a computer and brought her to life.. Really old movies.. I think 80's films..

I loved those films.. I forgot the titles of them though..

Weird Science, like Sphinx said. The other one was "Simone". Good movie, the latter.

miSSleepy
22-02-08, 03:37 PM
Exactly! and if we had to name this internal improvement of ones self, and call it something a little more formal.. I don't know.. something different from manipulation of people and situations.. something distinct and seperate from "Outer game".. what would be a fitting name?

INNER game perhaps?

We've been in agreement all along! This was the point of this thread!


so why are you also telling him to manipulate people?

HAS ANYONE SEEN 'SCHOOL FOR SCOUNDRELS'??

This is kind of worse.

GrkScorp
23-02-08, 06:51 AM
so why are you also telling him to manipulate people?

Because he was ALSO asking me other questions unrelated to the thread..

But while we're on the topic and waiting from OV's feedback on piano-girl.. a word on manipulation..

EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors.. Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Now, you can take manipulation and apply it to everything.. so let's apply it to people, specifically, young men and women (boys & girls).. A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no.. How do other women feel around her? Next to her? How do boys feel as she walks by? Has she changed the world around her? Have her actions caused people around her to respond differently? To feel differently? Would things be different if she didn't get dressed up that day?

Now, to be fair, let's apply it to guys.. Guys go outside of their house.. They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not.. How do people feel when these guys come around them? When these guys give them attention? When these guys look at them? Compliment them? Touch them? Have their actions caused people to feel differently? Would things be different if they took this all away?

Absolutely.. why? Because things (feelings) were different when these things were there in the first place.. In the normal course of events, a girl may notice that other girls aren't too fond of her if she dresses up.. while guys may respond differently.. she'll have to make a trade-off.. but such trade-offs are either made by accident "unintentional", or on purpose.. "intentional".. but in either case.. they still hold the same effect.. to change and manipulate the world and people around them..

From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

- "We're just friends" (I haven't explicitly told him that i'm not interested in him.. but he still takes me places and gets me stuff, but if he tries to lay a finger on me, that'll be the last time he sees me)

- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

- "He's not BF material" (He's not fcukable.. but he's a nice guy.. and I can't just say that or else i'd sound shallow, so let's all pretend there's something about him that's a deal-breaker besides his looks)

- "Why don't you give me your number instead?" (There's no way in hell I want to speak to you again, so just give me your number so that you can leave, and when you're not looking I can throw it out)

But what's more fitting is what girls DON'T do.. that constitutes manipulation.. Sitting there, passively.. accepting dinners, lunches, nights out, gifts, favors, etc.. (given, the guys who do that are idiots).. even though they have nothing but "friendly" intentions with such guys.. leading guys on to get such things.. using guys for nothing more than a good ego-boost.. flirting with guys just to create jealousy plot-lines.. acting cold & unresponsive to maintain an informational advantage until they're 200% sure how the guy feels about them, then get bored, and move along.. etc

(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are.. by default & by nature.. put them in a circle of friends, let them share ideas and tactics, and years later they grow up to form the manipulation guild as the masters of manipulation)

Is what i'm suggesting manipulation? Yes.. is it any less dirty? Probably not.. dating tactics are kids games.. hardcore manipulation takes place on a negotiation table, where the consequences are really serious.. and can cost lives or millions/billions of dollars.. the issue of intentional/unintentional attraction and manipulation of the other sex can only "cost" the guy some days/a few hundred dollars (or months/a few thoudand dollars if he's really stupid) and a broken heart if he got hit with one-itis.. similarly, it can "cost" the girl days/sh*tty sex/and a broken heart.. (or a child, marrying a back-up dancer, and getting divorced and giving him half of everything you have.. if she's really stupid)

The all too common argument to this is "oh, there's no need for kids games, people should just be mature and be themselves.. blah blah.. negative adjectives directed towards men/women who use manipulation.. positive adjectives directed towards men/women who don't use manipulation.. blah blah".. To that i'll say..

When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

Good news?

Yeah, eventually.. down the line, this minority of men will become the vast majority.. to the point where women realize female games are inferior, and they stop.. eventually men will stop aswell, since they only use games to counter games.. then the vast majority of both men and women don't even bother using them anymore.. And, in an effort to complicate our courting system and navigate through our tangled web which we call dating; we would have done nothing more than simplify the entire process.. to the way it should have been all along..

vashti
23-02-08, 08:46 AM
I sure would like to see an objective study that validates all these silly claims you make about how women behave.

IndiReloaded
23-02-08, 08:59 AM
"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

I loved this one^. Is this what guys really think?

In my case it was:

"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le"
= (He's too cocky/shallow/an asshole. He doesn't stand a chance w/me.)

Beyond that, never gave them a second thought.

Only-virgins
23-02-08, 10:37 AM
Because he was ALSO asking me other questions unrelated to the thread..

But while we're on the topic and waiting from OV's feedback on piano-girl.. a word on manipulation..

EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors.. Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Now, you can take manipulation and apply it to everything.. so let's apply it to people, specifically, young men and women (boys & girls).. A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no.. How do other women feel around her? Next to her? How do boys feel as she walks by? Has she changed the world around her? Have her actions caused people around her to respond differently? To feel differently? Would things be different if she didn't get dressed up that day?

Now, to be fair, let's apply it to guys.. Guys go outside of their house.. They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not.. How do people feel when these guys come around them? When these guys give them attention? When these guys look at them? Compliment them? Touch them? Have their actions caused people to feel differently? Would things be different if they took this all away?

Absolutely.. why? Because things (feelings) were different when these things were there in the first place.. In the normal course of events, a girl may notice that other girls aren't too fond of her if she dresses up.. while guys may respond differently.. she'll have to make a trade-off.. but such trade-offs are either made by accident "unintentional", or on purpose.. "intentional".. but in either case.. they still hold the same effect.. to change and manipulate the world and people around them..

From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

- "We're just friends" (I haven't explicitly told him that i'm not interested in him.. but he still takes me places and gets me stuff, but if he tries to lay a finger on me, that'll be the last time he sees me)

- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

- "He's not BF material" (He's not fcukable.. but he's a nice guy.. and I can't just say that or else i'd sound shallow, so let's all pretend there's something about him that's a deal-breaker besides his looks)

- "Why don't you give me your number instead?" (There's no way in hell I want to speak to you again, so just give me your number so that you can leave, and when you're not looking I can throw it out)

But what's more fitting is what girls DON'T do.. that constitutes manipulation.. Sitting there, passively.. accepting dinners, lunches, nights out, gifts, favors, etc.. (given, the guys who do that are idiots).. even though they have nothing but "friendly" intentions with such guys.. leading guys on to get such things.. using guys for nothing more than a good ego-boost.. flirting with guys just to create jealousy plot-lines.. acting cold & unresponsive to maintain an informational advantage until they're 200% sure how the guy feels about them, then get bored, and move along.. etc

(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are.. by default & by nature.. put them in a circle of friends, let them share ideas and tactics, and years later they grow up to form the manipulation guild as the masters of manipulation)

Is what i'm suggesting manipulation? Yes.. is it any less dirty? Probably not.. dating tactics are kids games.. hardcore manipulation takes place on a negotiation table, where the consequences are really serious.. and can cost lives or millions/billions of dollars.. the issue of intentional/unintentional attraction and manipulation of the other sex can only "cost" the guy some days/a few hundred dollars (or months/a few thoudand dollars if he's really stupid) and a broken heart if he got hit with one-itis.. similarly, it can "cost" the girl days/sh*tty sex/and a broken heart.. (or a child, marrying a back-up dancer, and getting divorced and giving him half of everything you have.. if she's really stupid)

The all too common argument to this is "oh, there's no need for kids games, people should just be mature and be themselves.. blah blah.. negative adjectives directed towards men/women who use manipulation.. positive adjectives directed towards men/women who don't use manipulation.. blah blah".. To that i'll say..

When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

Good news?

Yeah, eventually.. down the line, this minority of men will become the vast majority.. to the point where women realize female games are inferior, and they stop.. eventually men will stop aswell, since they only use games to counter games.. then the vast majority of both men and women don't even bother using them anymore.. And, in an effort to complicate our courting system and navigate through our tangled web which we call dating; we would have done nothing more than simplify the entire process.. to the way it should have been all along..

I can't be the only person here who enjoyed reading this can I? There is a lot of truth to this. Supported to me by observation. I don't think all guys who take girls out to lunch are idiots though, I would do it once or twice...and if there is no progress I am out.

Piano girl is Bi-sexual!!!!


I loved this one^. Is this what guys really think?

In my case it was:

"He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le"
= (He's too cocky/shallow/an asshole. He doesn't stand a chance w/me.)

Beyond that, never gave them a second thought.

I believe you because you are logical as well. It is pretty obvious though that women tend to saying something and mean something completely different. For example: "What is wrong honey? something is bothering you"..."nothing"(real meaning: something) lol

misombra
23-02-08, 10:43 AM
lol those interpretations couldn't be any more off the mark.

misombra
23-02-08, 10:50 AM
i'll interpret the "nothing" thing for you.

you: what's wrong?

her: nothing.

what she means: i could tell you, but then you'd probably act like an idiot and make me regret even saying anything. plus you probably wouldn't even listen, much less care, so what's the point?

him: duh duh duh gskorp duh duh duh.

vashti
23-02-08, 11:07 AM
lol those interpretations couldn't be any more off the mark.

The blind leading the blind. :D

Only-virgins
23-02-08, 11:49 AM
i'll interpret the "nothing" thing for you.

you: what's wrong?

her: nothing.

what she means: i could tell you, but then you'd probably act like an idiot and make me regret even saying anything. plus you probably wouldn't even listen, much less care, so what's the point?


First of you don't know that unless you already assume your boyfriend is an idiot and two...you only proved the point that they say things they don't mean sometimes.

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:09 AM
I can't be the only person here who enjoyed reading this can I? There is a lot of truth to this. Supported to me by observation. I don't think all guys who take girls out to lunch are idiots though, I would do it once or twice...and if there is no progress I am out.

I confess I stopped reading GS posts entirely several pages back. I'll take a look b/c you think there's something of substance there.

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:16 AM
i'll interpret the "nothing" thing for you.

you: what's wrong?

her: nothing.

what she means: i could tell you, but then you'd probably act like an idiot and make me regret even saying anything. plus you probably wouldn't even listen, much less care, so what's the point?

I'm curious to hear guys opinions as to why females answer like this^. This seems like a circular, degenerating situation to answer like this.

For the ladies: just say what you feel. Or say "I don't know yet, but I'm thinking about it."

vashti
24-02-08, 02:37 AM
I think males and females equally tend to give answers like that. ^

TheSphinx
24-02-08, 04:49 AM
I don't ask, "What's wrong?" any longer.

If I sense something is up, I'll just hold her.

I can't read her mind, but I can show her (as best as I am able without fumbling through a verbal exchange) that I will continue to be her man through whatever the issue may be.

And if, for some reason, there isn't actually anything going on, she typically gets turned on from being held, leading to some great sex anyway.

~Sphinx

GrkScorp
24-02-08, 05:20 AM
Piano girl is Bi-sexual!!!!

Score!!!!!!!!! :D

GrkScorp
24-02-08, 05:21 AM
i'll interpret the "nothing" thing for you.

you: what's wrong?

her: nothing.

what she means: i could tell you, but then you'd probably act like an idiot and make me regret even saying anything. plus you probably wouldn't even listen, much less care, so what's the point?

Ah yes! The infamous "nothing".. I can't believe I left that out!

GrkScorp
24-02-08, 05:23 AM
I don't ask, "What's wrong?" any longer.

If I sense something is up, I'll just hold her.

Well, you may not be able to read minds, but both people can usually tell what's wrong.. and I agree that if it has to reach to the point where the other person has to say "nothing".. it's a little too late.. and frustrating..

GrkScorp
24-02-08, 05:41 AM
lol those interpretations couldn't be any more off the mark.

Haha! Oh Mis.. you forget that i'm just pushing Indi & Vash's buttons.. but just for some good fun, that's all.. the problem with text is that it doesn't capture tone of voice..

Anyway.. OV.. what's the deal-e-o with piano-girl?

vashti
24-02-08, 06:05 AM
You are attempting to push MY buttons? I haven't really argued with you since page 3 or 4... You aren't pushing my buttons. I am more amused than anything else...

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 06:20 AM
Haha! Oh Mis.. you forget that i'm just pushing Indi & Vash's buttons.. but just for some good fun, that's all.. the problem with text is that it doesn't capture tone of voice..

Poor GS, feeling hard done to? You're just miffed b/c I said I stopped reading your posts. I'm flattered, tho, you care so much what I think. ;)

Honestly, you are the biggest attention whore I've ever 'met' online or off. Are you SURE you're a guy? ;)

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 06:24 AM
I don't ask, "What's wrong?" any longer.

If I sense something is up, I'll just hold her.

I can't read her mind, but I can show her (as best as I am able without fumbling through a verbal exchange) that I will continue to be her man through whatever the issue may be.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner^. Tho, how do you find this works if she's angry at *you*, Sphinx?

TheSphinx
24-02-08, 06:32 AM
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner^. Tho, how do you find this works if she's angry at *you*, Sphinx?

Hasn't happened since I've started, but I'm confident it would work the same.

~Sphinx

Only-virgins
24-02-08, 06:47 AM
I don't ask, "What's wrong?" any longer.

If I sense something is up, I'll just hold her.

I can't read her mind, but I can show her (as best as I am able without fumbling through a verbal exchange) that I will continue to be her man through whatever the issue may be.

And if, for some reason, there isn't actually anything going on, she typically gets turned on from being held, leading to some great sex anyway.

~Sphinx

Well, what frustrates me with that is that she being my girlfriend should be comfortable enough to open up and saying anything she wants too. No matter how bad the problem is.



Anyway.. OV.. what's the deal-e-o with piano-girl?

I gave her the note and we talked for a while. She said that she is bi-sexual and that she has a girlfriend. Meh, I didn't really push it further than that. She seems unstable and weird.


I think males and females equally tend to give answers like that. ^

Nah guys are more likely to just scream out the shit that bothers them and pisses them off.

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 06:50 AM
Hasn't happened since I've started, but I'm confident it would work the same.


Chicken or the egg, hmm. I think you have figured something really important. Is this behaviour something you inherited by example, or you figured out along the way? I think its important. Mind to share?

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 06:54 AM
Well, what frustrates me with that is that she being my girlfriend should be comfortable enough to open up and saying anything she wants too. No matter how bad the problem is.

Unfortunately, OV, there are ppl who, for various reasons, have difficulty w/clear, verbal communication. I'm told it is usually due to a deep fear of being able to handle emotionally charged verbal exchanges, but there it is all the same.

This is why I think Sphinx's post is so important. It provides a loving connection while letting the other person have the 'emotional space' they need to be able to compose their issue verbally.

Only-virgins
24-02-08, 07:05 AM
Unfortunately, OV, there are ppl who, for various reasons, have difficulty w/clear, verbal communication. I'm told it is usually due to a deep fear of being able to handle emotionally charged verbal exchanges, but there it is all the same.

This is why I think Sphinx's post is so important. It provides a loving connection while letting the other person have the 'emotional space' they need to be able to compose their issue verbally.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the way he handles it but I think at some point she should express herself and let me know what is on her mind. It would suck going through days seeing my lover miserable and not knowing why.

TheSphinx
24-02-08, 07:54 AM
Chicken or the egg, hmm. I think you have figured something really important. Is this behaviour something you inherited by example, or you figured out along the way? I think its important. Mind to share?

It's learned behavior. I believe it's an idea inspired by David Deida in his book The Way of the Superior Man and supported by my experience with women over the years.


I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the way he handles it but I think at some point she should express herself and let me know what is on her mind. It would suck going through days seeing my lover miserable and not knowing why.

OV, I make it a point to continue to date women who show the maturity and stability to verbally communicate with me when there is an issue relating to our relationship that she feels strongly about.

My previous post on how I typically respond was in regards to issues such as a bad day at work, PMS, etc; all events which are out of my control.

The first type of issues are always logical (should she go on birth control? should she get her own apartment?, etc.) and we have logical conversations about them.

The second type are always emotional (she had a bad day, she's worried about weight gain, etc.) and words seem wasted on such issues, to me. This is why I allow my body and my presence, in my closeness to her, to speak the things which are in my heart.

I feel that this level of communication is much stronger and clearer in these situations than trying to have a conversation over "what's wrong?"

~Sphinx

GrkScorp
24-02-08, 09:16 AM
I gave her the note and we talked for a while. She said that she is bi-sexual and that she has a girlfriend. Meh, I didn't really push it further than that. She seems unstable and weird.

That's AWSOME news!

Do you just realize what you just did?

I'm proud of you OV!

You realized that it's no big deal.. she didn't pull back, or reject your note or conversation, she didn't act mean or ignore you, none of that.. You got to realize the "normal/common" reaction of people.. And that's a HUGE step in realizing that in most cases, that's just what happens, you end up talking for a while, and the person who made the choice was YOU, (to cut to conversation short)..

Unstable & weird.. well, that's a judgement call..

Girlfriends/Boyfriends for Bi-sexual women mean nothing.. in fact, girlfriends for bi-sexual women mean less!

Lesbians with girlfriends.. abort! Very loyal to their partners.. (note on lesbians.. if they're not butch, they're highly emotional and sensitive.. and they're seeking that from a partner, along with someone who's either assertive/submissive depending on her type.. growing up, they don't find that from guys, instead they find that affection from girls.. plus they're attracted to a woman's body.. BUT.. they WILL have sex with a guy! Let me repeat that.. LESBIANS WILL HAVE SEX WITH A GUY!.. so don't be put off if a girl tells you she's a lesbian)

But don't cut her off OV.. keep talking to her in your classes following from today.. get her number and go out.. hang out together.. she'll be comfortable with it.. for all she knows/thinks.. she's told you she has a gf and you "understand"..

But her motive for telling you isn't clear or set in stone.. just like perfectly strait women telling you they have a boyfriend..

- 1. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but is lying to you because she's not interested in you (because you came on too strong)
- 2. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but doesn't want to feel like a loser who doesn't have a bf/gf, and she thinks it makes her seem more desireable (nice strategy; sarcasm)
- 3. She has a bf/gf, and given her other alternatives (you), she'd like to stay with him
- 4. She has a bf/gf, but just wants you to know ahead of time, so that if anything happens, she can sleep easy at night by rationalizing that it's YOUR fault if anything happens (sex only, not emotional availability), meaning you have to be discrete and afford her the comfort in feeling that if she does anything with you, nobody will find out because you don't talk about such things to other people..
- 5. She has a bf/gf, but again wants to let you know so it can be YOUR fault if anything happens.. and in this case, she's willing to cheat completely (sex & emotional availability), warning! She may sleep with you and then tell her bf/gf! Not a nice situation to be in..

I couldn't hear her or see her, but hopefully you can make a better judgement call as to which case she most likely falls into..

What's the most important, and you shouldn't overlook this, is that YOU qualified her, and YOU more or less rejected her as a potential date/gf because you found her weird/unstable after talking to her!

This was the next step a little further down the line.. but you noticed it all by yourself!

This is how things work.. and this is the state of mind you should be in.. you open up a group or a single person (and as you've seen, the normal/common reaction is no big deal).. and then after talking, YOU qualify and see if YOU are interested in her..

All that's happeneing, in effect, is that you see someone from across the room that "is attractive enough to be considered a potential gf, but not unattractive to the point where she is automatically disqualified".. you "open".. and through conversation you determine if she's disqualified (is she crazy, unstable, etc).. and then if she qualifies to be your gf (something special about her that you're attracted to and connect with, creativity, fun, etc).. So, YOU are qualifying her to see if she's good enough for you..

Just keep this in mind.. in the back of your mind somewhere, that's a good place for it.. i'm sure you have other more urgent matters to think about in life than to constantly be thinking about women..

But when the situation comes up.. when you see a girl you'd like to talk to.. I want you to think back to piano-girl.. if it helps.. maybe you'll hear a wisper inside your head.. "piano-girl".. and remember how it felt like to be in total control of the situation, how it felt like to be the one qualifying to see if she's good enough.. And as you feel that with the girls you'll meet.. keep in mind that piano-girl was really your "first" in this journey of yours.. she was the hardest case you'll have to ever deal with.. and that from this point on, maybe you'll notice how things are more obvious now, or maybe they'll just seem easier than the first time.. I don't know.. but i'm glad you've taken the first step OV

Only-virgins
25-02-08, 10:52 AM
1. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but is lying to you because she's not interested in you (because you came on too strong)
- 2. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but doesn't want to feel like a loser who doesn't have a bf/gf, and she thinks it makes her seem more desireable (nice strategy; sarcasm)
- 3. She has a bf/gf, and given her other alternatives (you), she'd like to stay with him
- 4. She has a bf/gf, but just wants you to know ahead of time, so that if anything happens, she can sleep easy at night by rationalizing that it's YOUR fault if anything happens (sex only, not emotional availability), meaning you have to be discrete and afford her the comfort in feeling that if she does anything with you, nobody will find out because you don't talk about such things to other people..
- 5. She has a bf/gf, but again wants to let you know so it can be YOUR fault if anything happens.. and in this case, she's willing to cheat completely (sex & emotional availability), warning! She may sleep with you and then tell her bf/gf! Not a nice situation to be in..



These make sense. I am not pushing it further with her. You kind of made me realize that there is plenty of options us guys have. In-fact...the amount of girls I socialize with has doubled at least since I made this thread. Don't know if it is a good thing or not but it is what it is. There is a new girl that sits in the cafeteria, I'm gonna talk to her Tuesday when I see her. Remember the first girl? in the hall? She introduced me to her friend after just talking to her for a while...more like ran into her friend actually...she stopped being all that interested..but as soon as I showed some interest for her friend she was all over me....bah women.

miSSleepy
25-02-08, 06:24 PM
EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Obviously. Every chemical reaction and process is some sort of manipulation. But wake up, you know very well what I'm talking about.


Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors..

I work fairly ... I do what my job entails, I pay taxes and I get paid legally. I don't evade taxes, abuse my rights and privelages or demean my colleauges.

So keeping to the analogy: I'd get larger benefits by evading taxes and making my peers shoulder most of what my work should be. It's to my advantage, after all.


Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Because they're doing the job and deserving of the money.


A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no..

Yes, just like a peackock displaying his plumage.


They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not..

Of course... women dress like pretty birds and look cute while men have everything to offer. yes, I remember you making this point previously.


From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

You never cease to amaze me...


- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

Sure, we're all nasty little sourpusses, jealous of every pretty girl in a cute dress. I wonder who the pretty girl in the cute dress is jealous of then.



- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

Actually, Scorp, if i told you you're cocky, shallow etc, what WOULD you think I mean? :surprised



(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are..

spit out the cold hard evidence and then I'll take this into consideration. Otherwise, stop gabbling.



When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

In other words, a large percentage of women by default are manipulators and it's the poor men who suffer, so therefore they need to take away this power.

Scorp ... wake the f&*%ck up to yourself. Go outside and get some field experience. Get yourself a real woman. I just can't believe how many guys on these board lap up your shit, but have you noticed that NOT ONE woman agrees with you? Of course you'll see this is some sort of feminine flaw where we're in denial of the truth, but get an effing grip, and no doubt in your rebuttal you'll make mention of me being a woman like you usually do (to women who rebutt you).

misombra
26-02-08, 12:00 AM
First of you don't know that unless you already assume your boyfriend is an idiot and two...you only proved the point that they say things they don't mean sometimes.

when people are defensive or angry, their iq drops quite a bit, and the irrational side of people come out. if you're trying to talk about something serious or logical to somebody who is defensive or angry, they're either not going to hear you, hear only what they want to hear, or hear something completely different from what you said.

yes, a lot of research has been put into that conclusion.

if you want to be with somebody who says what they mean, then find a girl who says what she means. and say what you mean, so a nice trust can develop.

when i'm upset or frustrated about something, last thing i want around me is the guy i'm with to be asking what's wrong a million times when i don't really feel like talking about it, or i don't know what's going, or it's a whole multitude of things.

asking what's wrong is inviting something to be said that you don't want to hear. if another person is upset, and you ask them what is wrong, the reason is going to be something about you. and it's probably not going to be good. but if you just calm yourself and maybe listen and try to be understanding, that person very well may forget about what they were upset about. because they're with such an understanding person. and don't even try to tell me that girls don't like understanding guys, because that is complete bullshit.

GrkScorp
26-02-08, 04:00 AM
In-fact...the amount of girls I socialize with has doubled at least since I made this thread. Don't know if it is a good thing or not but it is what it is

Well, I don't know.. all the women on the forum apparently seem to disagree.. but the results in the field seem to disagree with them.. it all depends on what you want to consider a better indicator, OV

That's great news though OV, i'm really happy that you're starting to notice that change.. the change you wanted to notice for yourself..

But I don't know if you're aware of it yet, perhaps you are, but an other change you're going to start to notice is how more aware you are now of all these subtle social dynamics.. And that makes for a much richer experience..

A word on cats & jealousy:

- A cat will never value all the attention and affection you give to it, until you take it away.. But what's really interesting to watch is when an other cat comes into the house.. All of a sudden, all that petting it used to run away from are now invitations for it to come rub up against you.. It now values your attention and affection..

Your going to start to notice this, and many more of these dynamics for yourself.. you seem to be pretty eager.. and a fast learner.. so i'm sure you'll have nothing but an orgy of experience in due time.. followed by posts of your success of course..

Note: (hallway-girl).. Most likely the case that she's just trying to claim you as her own property in front of her friend.. it's a status thing amung them.. if you let them both feel that she's successful in doing just that.. then you're just an other guy she's claimed under her belt.. if you play the issue further, and make her feel that she in fact doesn't have that control she thought she did over you.. she would have just DLV-ed in front of her friend, to her own self.. and perhaps feel like she did in front of you too.. then, you can start to re-shift attention from her friend back to her.. and for as long as you're DHV-ing.. she'll want that attention.. and that sense of jealousy will let her feel just how much she wants it.. up until that point she has "feelings" for you.. but it's not until she feels some form of jealousy that she knows very well that she "likes" you..

Case Study: (Since you science-people are into that)

- Waitress-girl (let's call her Yiota, 22)

- I was with my friend George & Maria the first time I saw her at this cafe'/lounge we usually go to on Friday nights.. So on our way out that night, I play a game with George & Maria, Yiota is watching.. then as we're leaving.. I go over to her "Hey, we're leaving, but do you have 5 minutes?" She said "yes" thinking that I was hitting on her though.. So I say, "Well, have you ever played the 5-question game before? (no).. well, it's really quick, it's just 5-questions.. but before we play, we have to make bets.. (Mish, notice the presupposition).. (her: ok).. What do you want if you win? (I get to be your waitress next time, haha).. Oh, you're asking for a little too much there, but ok.. fine.. well.. if I win, you have to tell me the name of the hostess that's here every Friday" (clearly, shifting focus to an other girl, she couldn't rationalize that I was hitting on her with certainty, to do so would be vain given the situation; so in effect, it relieved her of the pressure of feeling hit-on, and she opened up; and lost the game.. we laughed, I explained the game to her.. and then we left)

- Me and my friend Kosta come back on an other Friday, and I see her and signal for her to come over to our table.. I didn't say anything explicitly, but it was implicitly understood that she was to be our waitress, a symbolic gesture you can sense in the vibe got her thinking about last time (where she wanted to be our waitress).. She came, to our table.. and asked.. "You again, do you have any more games this time?" (what am I some circus clown? i'll tell you what, after you take down our orders, maybe something 'll come to me.. maybe..).. After she takes down the orders.. I hand her a list numberd 1-20, for her to write down 20 items.. at first she comes back and tells me she could only think of 10 items to write down.. (10? oh come on, you can do better than that.. take your time, write down 20 before you come back).. she comes back with 20 items, and I hand her my list.. the whole night she was busy serving other people, but memorizing my list.. (in effect, I was on her mind the entire night).. she comes back.. she did a good job, 16 items memorized.. told her her items, then mine, she was blown away.. At that moment, there was alot of touching between us; she definitely opened up, but being that she was working, around her boss and co-workers, and being that I was a customer, she was already feeling like she was crossing the line.. so I told her to get us the check.. As she did, I opened up the group next to us (2 girls, 1 guy).. Kosta saw her looking at us from across the cafe', and as she came back, she made it a point to stand between me and the girl I was talking to..

- Most recent friday, I go there again with Kosta, but this time i'm more serious about hitting on her.. (I had just cut things off with 34y/o Chile' girl).. We get a different waitress.. Open her, (stories, tricks).. then we get her to get some more waitresses to come over for (group tricks).. and then Yiota walks by.. waves, I pretend to not notice.. she waves again and smiles.. I smile back and signal for her to cut through the crowd.. a subtle brush against her exposed hips and waist to greet her as we chit-chatted, she touched my chest and arms as we talked, and I pulled back 40% of the time (subtle/implicit active disinterest).. and then told her "hey, can you do me a small favor? (yeah sure) can you tell the manager to maybe lower the music a little bit, there's no talking over this music.." She starts to playfully dance and ask what's wrong with it.. but I nicely insist that she go and ask him to lower the music.. she does.. and then comes back.. when she does.. I say.. "thanks.. that's much better.. (I pull the chair next to me out, without explicitly telling her to sit down, just looking at her eyes, then the chair, and her eyes again as I pull it out; she sits down) NOW (we) can talk.." More DHV-ing, and then I excuse myself to the bathroom as I tell her she should probably get back to work before the manager kicks us all out.. When I come back from the bathroom, me and Kosta walk over to the table where all the waitresses are hanging out, and we do an ESP-game on all of them, leading them to the same number.. then I leave by hugging and kissing goodbye (no, relax, it means nothing; we're both Greek, this is normal).. but all it does is show that (now the bartender, manager, and waitresses love me and I DHV-ed my @ss off to the point where they all think i'm this fun, funny, interesting, non-needy, great guy who makes them feel great on Fridays.. BUT, making Yiota feel like i'm most comfortable with her, her green-light into trying to win back my attention.. and it was working, it always does.. she was starting to work for my attention.. starting to invest her time, and go outside her comfort zone just to get more of it..)

- Upcomming Friday: (###-#### routine): On waitresses, it's a lot of work, never think that you're going to one-night-close a waitress.. it just doesn't happen.. if it does, it's probably a weak close.. It takes plently of DHV-ing.. a lot of tension-building, and some form of fear of loss or jealousy, or both.. In Yiota's case.. it'll just take a pretend-takeaway.. keep seeding to her the notion that it'll be the last night we ever come to that cafe'.. because the music is too loud, and hard to talk over.. but we'll miss her.. start off with seeding that night.. then DHV again.. and continue onto comfort-building with her.. the whole night.. what ALWAYS happens.. ALWAYS.. (just in case it didn't sink in) ALWAYS HAPPENS.. is as i'm about to leave, her emotions will get her to do it (she's invested and worked for it, she wants to see that return-on-investment; plus doesn't want to lose me after so much DHV-ing & comfort-building), or the other waitresses and staff will push her towards it and prevent her from chicken-sh*tting.. she'll come up and offer me her number, most likely either in person, or inside the check.. (why? fear of loss, it'll hit her.. "I might never see him again after tonight".. and i've done nothing for him to want to get my number, but I feel attracted and that sense of connection with him.. so i'm going to have to ask him for it.. "btw, do a good job of patterning and making her feel comfortable with the idea of giving you her number; like it's no big deal, and she won't need the rest of the staff to push her into giving it to you")

That's what it boils down to in the end.. routines.. routines with no doubt or uncertainty about the outcome.. You can almost predict the reaction you're going to get.. and that sense of zero doubt in your mind about your expected outcome, allows you to focus entierly on the process.. and the other person.. as it starts to become more automatic and instinctive, with the more experience and awareness you get of these dynamics.. That's the power behind inner game, OV.. nothing is scripted, there's just knowing.. knowing what's going to happen if you do something.. because you've seen it happen before.. many times.. and you understood why it happened.. you have a solid framework built into your mind about these dynamics.. and no longer have any doubts about the outcome..

Looking foward to more posts OV, and hopefully less PG-rated ones in the future ;)

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 04:55 AM
when people are defensive or angry, their iq drops quite a bit, and the irrational side of people come out.

yes, a lot of research has been put into that conclusion.

Yup. Emotions go up; intellect goes down. This is actually a well-known sales tactic, fyi, its not just for relationships.


asking what's wrong is inviting something to be said that you don't want to hear. if another person is upset, and you ask them what is wrong, the reason is going to be something about you. and it's probably not going to be good. but if you just calm yourself and maybe listen and try to be understanding, that person very well may forget about what they were upset about. because they're with such an understanding person. and don't even try to tell me that girls don't like understanding guys, because that is complete bullshit.

There is this too. I agree. Its interesting b/c I think this also applies to the 'how are you today', standard greeting also. Some ppl actually get offended if someone says 'actually, I'm feeling like shit today..' :surprised

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

GrkScorp
26-02-08, 05:11 AM
There is this too. I agree. Its interesting b/c I think this actually applies to the 'how are you today', standard greeting also. Some ppl actually get offended if someone says 'actually, I'm feeling like shit today..' :surprised

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

"I'm feeling like sh*t today" is such an amazing answer to work with.. you can talk about so much more via that, rather than a "i'm good"

You just have to make the best of the situation.. Wow, I just realized how much being a saleman really helps..

Back when I was working in Real-Estate full-time.. one of the first things I would ask potential buyers before I would even show them a house was.. "First of all, what made you want to start looking for a home? .. blah blah.. what do you think it would be like to own your first home?.. Have you ever thought about it before, what it would feel like to walk into that house you would end up owning, for the first time? blah blah.. Before we start looking at homes and start making offers, it's important to go inside a home and really get that feeling, that this is the right home for you.. I don't know when you're going to feel that.. maybe you get to feel that with the first home you walk into, or maybe it'll happen in as much as 5 homes down the line.. it usually takes people around 2-3 homes before they really feel that.. everyone is different though.. you can take as much time as you need.. I don't know, but I think you'll agree that it's important to get that feeling, where you just know that this is the home for you.. It's completely up to you though when you feel that.. I'm not here to force you into buying a home.. just to help show you homes, until you tell me that hey, I got that feeling.. this is the one.." To lock in the offer.. i'd re-stimulate those emotions with a home I could tell they were interested in.. and close "before you go ahead and, make an offer.. I want you to take as much time as you need to think about anything you may need to, i'll be in the next room whenever you're ready.."

And in under 5 showings, i'd usually pull offers.. But I guess something as major as owning your first home is sort of unfair.. it creates a surge of emotions to work with as a salesperson.. If you asked me to sell toothpicks or something, I don't think i'd be able to do it.. :P

misombra
26-02-08, 05:16 AM
Well, I don't know.. all the women on the forum apparently seem to disagree.. but the results in the field seem to disagree with them.. it all depends on what you want to consider a better indicator, OV



actually the results in the field do agree. we are the field. we are people who have somebody who is loyal to us and somebody to whom we are loyal. plus, we out number you.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 05:29 AM
LOL.

I'm madly trying to remember what I was like before my husband, tho. I suppose, in fairness to GS, I was 'susceptible' to a certain form of communication. Problem for most of the poor sods trying to date me was that they didn't know how to communicate w/a female like me. For whatever reason, at least in my time, brilliant women were very intimidating to a lot of guys, even ones going to university as I was. Of those fellows who got most of my attention, the 'successful' ones were the fellows who figured out how to 'speak' my language & had the capacity to do so.

There, GS, stick that in your analysis pipe & smoke it. Let's hear how this translates for someone like OV, who wants a partner w/a brain.

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 05:29 AM
actually the results in the field do agree. we are the field. we are people who have somebody who is loyal to us and somebody to whom we are loyal. plus, we out number you.

It is only the field when the test subject doesn't know it is tested on. You girls here know what he is saying, so of course it will piss you off.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 05:43 AM
It is only the field when the test subject doesn't know it is tested on.

I can't speak for others, but I recognized very young (around 18) that there were guys trying to 'play' me for attention/dates. I spent a lot of time (nearly every weekend) sneaking into bars as an underage teenybopper, so this was old news by the time I went away to uni & experienced that social scene. :P

I think you aren't giving smart girls credit for seeing things as they are. And, as you admit, women do talk. I am quite open to young females & males about what to expect in certain social situations.

misombra
26-02-08, 06:04 AM
It is only the field when the test subject doesn't know it is tested on. You girls here know what he is saying, so of course it will piss you off.

actually, the fact that guys use games and manipulative to get women is nothing new. any smart woman will know what she is dealing with from a mile away. an even smarter woman would either leave you alone or eat you for dinner.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 06:15 AM
You could always try reserving direct honesty as a tool to separate the wheat from the chaff. And honesty doesn't negate the use of wit in a conversation, of course. Its a balance, like everything.

I seem to remember Sphinx (and Miso, Vash, myself) saying this pages ago...?

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 06:27 AM
actually, the fact that guys use games and manipulative to get women is nothing new. any smart woman will know what she is dealing with from a mile away. an even smarter woman would either leave you alone or eat you for dinner.

I never said it was new. Just that it seems to works on UNSUSPECTING girls.

vashti
26-02-08, 06:59 AM
Unsuspecting girls? What, are you planning to hit on 14 year olds?

TheSphinx
26-02-08, 09:16 AM
I think an "opener" to try for the unsuspecting girls would be to carry a boombox blaring the Jaws theme as you make your approach.

~Sphinx

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 10:16 AM
I think an "opener" to try for the unsuspecting girls would be to carry a boombox blaring the Jaws theme as you make your approach.

~Sphinx

Hahaha. Would one of the mods pls thank this post for me? My button doesn't work on this browser, lol!

+1 For best post of the week.

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 10:53 AM
Oh shut up you guys, you know what I mean. Girls that don't know about these things.

GrkScorp
26-02-08, 03:54 PM
It is only the field when the test subject doesn't know it is tested on. You girls here know what he is saying, so of course it will piss you off.

Anyway.. yes.. if you tell someone.. "Sir, take this placebo pill, and tell me if you feel any different".. chances are.. he's not going to feel any different..

Similarly.. explain the magic trick you're about to preform.. and there's no point in preforming it.. it no longer has that element of magic to it..

But there's something important here.. that I hope you don't make the mistake of doing.. (pre-scripting, memorizing lines, faking, or acting).. all of that is Outer Game, and that's not what this thread is about..

Inner Game affords you this wonderful tool when it gets strong enough.. it's called "moxie".. in short, moxie is the ability to hold a fun, interesting, funny, and emotionally stimulating conversation, naturally, genuinely, spontaneously, instinctively and automatically.. With moxie, a conversation can never die out around you.. you'll always find some way to genuinely and naturally turn even dry subjects/topics into interesting, fun, stimulating and juicy conversation.. and this is an attractive quality.. But more importantly.. it's a byproduct of Inner Game, and results from natural and genuine delivery of conversation.. genuine confidence..

So, a word on the attempts to argue once again.. Actually, being pissed off is understandable.. I actually applaud all of them.. it's more towards the mild side.. If I was a woman i'd be really pissed off.. but again, it's understandable.. When we are shown our weaknesses, and ways they can be exploited, we feel vulnerable.. this gets us angry, but after anger, there's just ego.. not willing to accept it.. in denial.. (much like with death).. weak attempts to (isolate, degrade what constitutes the field.. limit to field to include a specific few.. and then contrast the two as "oh, those are just immature, baby girls, who are stupid.. we're smart, we'd never fall for that")..

- What kind of girls are you trying this on? 14 year olds?
- Only stupid girls would fall for that
- Smart, intelligent women wouldn't fall for that
- Women can smell it from a mile away
- When they do, they're either leave or eat you up

(Now, i'm not getting on anyone's case.. and i'm also not telling you to overlook older, married women as potential targets.. although, out of respect, you should stay away from married women.. and older women just want sex anyway from a younger guy..)

Case Study: (Neurobiology-girl, 21, hereby Megan)

- Biochemistry & Physics double-major, accepted to Mount Sinai School of Medicine, looking to specialize in neurology (specifically interested in Parkinson's research)

Like the idiot that I am, I start talking about NLP to keep the conversation going at the moment.. I was shocked.. Megan knew almost everything there was to know about the subject.. She took a course of Neurology & the Brain and fell in love with the topic.. She knew nearly all the works of Milton H. Erickson, Richard Bandler, John Grinder, Gregory Bateson, Fritz Perls, Virginia Satir, and Igor Ledochowski in great detail.. Though I really enjoyed talking for quite a while about the subject, we both loved it, we were both nerds deep inside.. and both huge Darren Brown fans..

Down the line she started talking about the nervous system and how she's working with a doctor now who makes 3D models of the mind to explain what happens in the brain.. At that moment, a switch flipped off in my head, and I delivered perhaps the most powerful pattern on the spot and completely within context..

"I don't mean to interrupt, but since we're on the subject, I don't know if you watch the Discovery Channel or not, you're probably busy to catch it all the time, but I absolutely love it, it's the only channel I watch.. It had this special recently on attraction and love in humans (I didn't want to use the word sex).. It showed 3D models of what exactly happens throughout the entire human body and the brain from beginning to end.. It started off talking about how attraction, just like other powerful emotions such as fear, nervousness, and excitement bring into play the sympathetic & parasympathetic nervous system.. And that during those first stages of attraction, the body feels those same sensations taking place.. The first thing that takes place is obviously getting input of the other person, your eyes pick up on the details of their face.. your ears start to notice the unique sound of their voice.. and (touching her knee) things like touch and smell all come into play.. and that's when the whole process starts, that's when the brain sends the message, 'i'm attracted to this person' to the body.. and what was interesting is that the first thing that happens, is that you start to become aware of your breathing, it's no longer automatic.. and while you're aware of how conscious and in control of your breathing you are.. those feelings of nervousness and excitement start to pop up.. and as you take each breath, the chest starts to feel shaky, from all that nervousness and excitement.. that's the adrenaline rushing out.. which causes the very next sensation.. the breathing changes.. while the adrenaline starts flowing, and as those feelings of nervousness and excitement spread thoughout the body, your breathing starts to get much fuller, deeper, and more relaxed.. and at that very moment, the heart starts to pump faster.. you can feel it pounding.. harder.. and now it has the oxygen to do so.. and as it just keeps pounding.. and you can feel it pounding harder.. deeper breaths.. this sensation spreads.. all throughout the entire body.. starting from your head.. going down.. below you.. and then back up.. up and down.. and it's really a mix of emotions.. nervousness, excitement, attraction.. coupled with hyperventilation.. and as you feel all that.. your brain releases a very potent love-cocktail, and first it acts within the brain, it's like a mildly numb sensation.. but then those juices move downwards along your body.. that really gets the muscles to unwind and relax.. and helps regulate the breathing.. and just before that sense of attraction completely takes over.. the body starts to feel warmer.. like it's starting to heat up.. all while you feel those feelings and sensations all around your body.. With me, I thought the most interesting part was how it all looks deep inside.. the brain.. during an active MRI.. the pleasure center of the brain is practically all red.. And what's funny is that the whole body is so busy, that memory doesn't get activated.. so when we think back to those times we felt really attracted to someone for the first time.. we'll never really remember any of these sensations or things that were taking place.. it's almost like those little details don't matter, but they do! Without them.. there would be no attraction.."

(Her faced changed from completely flushed, to blushing, to red.. her breathing changed as I paced her through the whole story.. her pupils were practically fully dialated.. and after that.. she got shy/submissive.. more flirty, playful, smiled more, and touched more.. I didn't even have to go into the whole "you know what the second most sensitive part of the body is? this lips.. most people don't know.. and it's actually, believe it or not, one of the most neglected parts.. blah blah" she had puppy-dog eyes and we kissed mid-way though the night; she was a sh*tty kisser, but that's besides the point)

The point is.. Mrs./Dr. NLP got her @ss handed to her.. and although out of the girls i've dated, she wasn't in the best position to call me on it (i've had my fair share of psychology majors.. most of them children's psychology.. but one was behavioral/cognitive.. and she still didn't call me on it).. she ended up enjoying it.. and that's always the point!

That's the difference between using patterns as part of Outer Game, being fake, pre-scripted, non-genuine, and just looking to get into someone's pants via hypnosis.. and having strong Inner Game, being genuine, natural, not using pre-scripted lines and such things, but instead having "moxie".. and your goal should not be "making her fall for it".. All you're doing is talking.. you're using words.. and you're just there to make her feel great.. emotionally stimulate her.. not manipulate her..

This is all part of natural conversation.. it's just words.. put together in a certain way that get a certain reaction.. when delivered naturally.. and moxie affords you the ability to deliver them naturally.. like a new style of speaking.. able to take anything and make it emotionally stimulating, fun, interesting, and funny.. and this is a quality girls love.. simply because it makes them feel great..

If your intentions are to manipulate "her", then you'll ALWAYS fail.. girls/women both smart & dumb, young and old.. will pick up on it from a mile away.. and maybe they will leave or eat you up.. and rightfully so..

But if your intentions are to make her feel great & amazing inside, and just provide a fun, rich, emotionally stimulating time.. then you'll ALWAYS succeed.. And strong Inner Game and moxie will do just that..

Only-virgins
29-02-08, 11:27 AM
I talked to this girl yesterday and asked her if she can do something for me, in reality I had no conversation breaker so I tried to just make sure I get another opportunity to talk to her. She is a social person and I kind of choked man, I think my speech stuttered and I gave the impression that I have to get out of there to much. She called me back on it as I walked away...She said my name and asked something about a project that is being worked on. I asked her to get me a video that I actually already have. She agreed and introduced herself. Now I have a huge problem. She will give me the vid in a couple of days and I don't know what else to say to her....even worse...she gave me her name and I COMPLETELY forgot it...she intimidated me and I started stuttering and I choked. I think she even in a subtle way invited me for a chat right there but I left. Shit.

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 01:21 PM
I talked to this girl yesterday and asked her if she can do something for me, in reality I had no conversation breaker so I tried to just make sure I get another opportunity to talk to her. She is a social person and I kind of choked man, I think my speech stuttered and I gave the impression that I have to get out of there to much. She called me back on it as I walked away...She said my name and asked something about a project that is being worked on. I asked her to get me a video that I actually already have. She agreed and introduced herself. Now I have a huge problem. She will give me the vid in a couple of days and I don't know what else to say to her....even worse...she gave me her name and I COMPLETELY forgot it...she intimidated me and I started stuttering and I choked. I think she even in a subtle way invited me for a chat right there but I left. Shit.

Keep it light, OV, don't freak out. Its NOT a huge problem, you're psyching yourself out man.

You've got a wonderful opportunity here. If she gives you the vid, thank her politely & excuse yourself after a short period of time. Light pleasantries only. If she doesn't in a couple of days, gently remind her when you next see her "hey, did you ever find that vid we were discussing?".

If she does give you the vid, then she's made an effort for you & that's good. Wait a day or so & then mention casually about wanting to discuss it w/her.

Smile lots. Try to stay relaxed, its not life or death. Find someone at work you can find out her name from in a subtle way asap. If there is an older matriarch type in the lab (like me) ;) ask her & she'll help. Try not to ask her friend or peer as it may get back to her.

Actually, if you talk to her again, I think you should just jump her bones right there in the hall. Joking. ;) Have fun.

Only-virgins
29-02-08, 03:33 PM
Keep it light, OV, don't freak out. Its NOT a huge problem, you're psyching yourself out man.

You've got a wonderful opportunity here. If she gives you the vid, thank her politely & excuse yourself after a short period of time. Light pleasantries only. If she doesn't in a couple of days, gently remind her when you next see her "hey, did you ever find that vid we were discussing?".

If she does give you the vid, then she's made an effort for you & that's good. Wait a day or so & then mention casually about wanting to discuss it w/her.

Smile lots. Try to stay relaxed, its not life or death. Find someone at work you can find out her name from in a subtle way asap. If there is an older matriarch type in the lab (like me) ;) ask her & she'll help. Try not to ask her friend or peer as it may get back to her.

Actually, if you talk to her again, I think you should just jump her bones right there in the hall. Joking. ;) Have fun.

Yea but I don't know what to say. I have a feeling that I will just thank her, take it, and it will end at that. Damn it. I have no one to find out her name from. Son of a....

She will give it to me. I pretty much trapped her into giving me another chance for a conversation. That was the point, I thought if I put it off for later it would be better. I can't believe I am making her do something unnecessary ...how lame is that? By the way, four guys are after this girl constantly and she talks to them so the competition sucks. I could swear though that she was looking at me a lot and her eyes look like big black buttons....I think she likes me and I have a feeling I'm gonna **** this up. :O(

GrkScorp
01-03-08, 06:05 AM
Yea but I don't know what to say. I have a feeling that I will just thank her, take it, and it will end at that........By the way, four guys are after this girl constantly and she talks to them so the competition sucks. I could swear though that she was looking at me a lot and her eyes look like big black buttons....I think she likes me and I have a feeling I'm gonna **** this up. :O(

First thing is first.. a look at an irrational emotion when it comes to the opposite sex; fear

There are many reasons for feeling this fear, and once upon a time, it was critical to your survival, but today, this sense of fear is completely irrational, and as a man of science, i'm sure you'll make note of the rationality behind all this..

1. Fear of her having a bf, and having his bf and his friends giving you a piece of their mind!

2. Fear of her rejecting you, and then her going back to her friends (the remainder of your mating options) and telling them that you did not qualify as a mate; therefore rendering your chances of reproduction to zero!

3. Fear of you not being good enough for her (preventive of 2), and of you doing something dumb that will "mess-it-up" (again, preventive of 2)

The reality is, that the first two fears are irrational in today's day and age:

1. When you hear about two people getting married, you get a feeling.. you feel happy.. even if those people are not you.. even if you don't even know them.. the concept of marriage is a happy one.. it's a social "wedlock" that shows that two people are going to create children, raise them in a stable environment, for the benefit of humanity.. This is good for everyone, so as social creatures, we want to encourage this.. as much as possible.. this is why we feel happy when people get married, judge people or get sad when people get divorced, and feel angry towards people or even guilty of going after someone who is already in a relationship leading to marriage.. if society DIDN'T have a problem with this, there would be a lot of counterproductive friction in the entire mating process.. But you're NOT comming in the way of her and her bf.. you're NEVER triggering that reaction from society.. (directly).. all you are doing is DHV-ing.. being yourself.. it's not your fault if she feels attracted to you.. because it's not like you were DOING anything to put-down her bf or force yourself on to her.. no.. IF (big "if") she has a bf, you DHV & BFD.. and BFD-ing is (indirect).. for all her bf, her friends, his friends, and she knows.. you've always liked her bf, had nothing but "good" things to say about him, and always had his back and "stood-up-for" him.. the only thing that will have seemed to have happened is that SHE grew less and less attracted/connected to her bf.. and more and more attracted/connected to you.. by her own free-will and CHOICE.. :evil: which leaves the rest of society off your back.. for as long as you take this indirect approach.. this little issue, is not something you should ever worry about..

2. Unless you live in some village or township of 2,000 people or less.. this fear does not apply.. It definitely doesn't apply in major cities.. Look at your census data, and estimate how many women around your age range you have.. of that number.. take 1% (let's be conservative, let's pretend you're being very picky and won't settle for anything less than almost perfect).. now, for every 3 women.. you can afford 1 rejection.. how many rejections can you afford in total? Wow! Now, invert that.. 1/total rejections you can afford.. How much does each rejection matter? Not that much.. IF (big "if") you miscalibrate, and you encounter something like a rejection, you still have so many other chances for that (ideal 1%).. so think of that number as your chances to learn from your mistakes.. the mistakes you can afford to make.. and learn the most you can from each.. so you don't make it again in the future..

3. This one is complicated.. part of it is taken care of through self-awareness and realization of your own value.. that helps take care of the issue of "feeling like you're not good enough for her".. but there's much more to that.. it's a great first step.. but there are more steps that follow..

GrkScorp
01-03-08, 06:57 AM
I could swear though that she was looking at me a lot and her eyes look like big black buttons....I think she likes me and I have a feeling I'm gonna **** this up. :O(

Calibration & Social Intuition:

- Miscalibration: Men know what this is.. it's ironic that they know what miscalibration is, because you can think of it as NOT knowing what calibration is.. I'm sure we've all had the pleasure of feeling something for someone, and trying to see if they feel the same way.. For a guy, he's largely clueless.. all he can "read" is what the girl says.. which in most cases is not much.. it's either "junk, filler, fake-disinterest, or nothing".. this being the case, it can seem like the guy is trying to throw darts in the dark.. with a blindfold on.. When miscalibrated, imagine a thermometer, a digital one, which will get the temperature right 1/1000 times, just because of "luck".. this creates a huge informational advantage for the girl who is slightly more calibrated.. and it leaves the guy having to make "bold" moves in search of information "how does she feel?"

Example: My friend George, lacks any sort of calibration.. he was telling me about this girl he likes, and how she got back to him and wants to go out.. So they went out.. and on that first date, she was smiling, touching him, laughing, which I told him were all signs to look out for (good and bad, because they could very easily be genuine "unconscious" or fake "conscious/put-on").. She did her little "fake-reach" for her bag, and he offered to pay.. she didn't refuse.. and so they leave and walk by the NJ shore-line overlooking Manhattan.. they have a great conversation, and he feels great inside, this urge to kiss her.. and he thinks "hey, she's been giving me all these signs, she most likely likes me" and so he leans foward.. and gets slapped.. "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that".. "George, I'm sorry, you're really sweet, you really are.. and I really mean that.. but I need you more as a friend right now" (don't you love that? I think it's so brilliant.. how they think of these things on the spot.. giving the poor guy this HOPE of something in the FUTURE.. lol)

Anyway.. the tragedy that took place here, and I say tragedy because if you meet George, he really is the biggest sweetheart you'll ever meet.. is that he couldn't "read" her.. at all.. he lacked "calibration"

- Calibration: Mother nature favors women when it comes to calibration.. for more than 12,000 years, they have had to take care of a child.. and needed to listen to their unconscious tell them "get the fcuk out of the quiet forest b*tch and run!".. No.. they don't hear voices.. it's a "feeling".. a gut feeling.. an "intuition".. women who lacked this difference in the size of their amygdala had their child die, or died along with their child.. and so 12,000 years later, you end up with highly calibrated social geniuses.. To add to this, female-female frame games are much more complex and subtle than male-male frame games.. From an early age, girls adapt to a set of social rules and norms which boys are largely unaware of.. "Status", "respect", "authority", and "power" are derived differently in a group of males, than they are in a group of females.. This new world of communication which the male eyes is largely unaware of until much later in life, accounts for 93% of communication in general.. (voice tone, pace, volume, facial expressions, eye movements, blinking, body-language, breathing, heart-rate visable via the neck, proxemics, etc).. Being calibrated to these forms of communication gives one a huge informational advantage! Mainly because, for the most part, these are all unconscious indicators.. so they are more reliable and representative of someone's "true" feelings than the lousy 7% of verbal-context communication..

Improving your calibration:

- Practice, practice, practice.. Go out, observe women interacting.. know when they are playing games, know when they are interested, know when they are pretending to be interested.. know when they are pretending to be disinterested.. know when they are pretending to not notice you.. know when they are pretending to ignore you.. lying, telling the truth, bragging, trying to impress you, trying to make you jealous, trying to get your attention, are attracted to you, are testing you, are thinking about you kissing them, want to have sex, what sexual fantasies they have, etc.. As you get better at reading people.. you'll be able to go from calibration, on to microcalibration (much higher and deeper level of reading people)

- Calibration Training: Get a female friend, sit down.. and play a couple of games.. the object of the games are for YOU to get a better feel of your intuition.. think of it like a color.. red, blue, green, yellow, pink.. whatever works for you.. and as you get a feeling.. let that color grow inside of you.. let it scream to you.. learn to listen to it's message..

(like/dislike): Ask her to describe 5 things that she really likes in detail.. what she likes about them.. and to picture herself with each item.. notice her "vibe" and signals.. every bit of information her body is communicating to you.. calibrate your intuition.. then ask her to think about 5 things she dislikes.. again, calibrate.. now.. ask her about a random object you can think of.. now.. try and see if you can tell if she likes or dislikes it.. don't get discouraged if you are not 100% accurate right away.. it can take a while.. but keep doing it, and making note of your progress.. listen to your intuition, and don't doubt it! don't second guess it or re-think it.. do NOT feel uncertain.. feel absolutely certain.. as you calibrate your intuition, and learn to listen to it, you'll notice that.. when it comes to people.. it's always right..

(truth/lie): again, same thing.. now ask her non-personal questions, and see if you can tell if she's lying or telling the truth.. (this one is fun).. remember, the point is to calibrate!

(attractive/unattractive): download a list of celebs.. and ask her to pick a guy she likes.. then ask her to describe what she likes about him.. what movies she liked him in.. how it would feel like to meet him.. etc.. while you're doing this.. calibrate.. then ask her to go through a social-networking site and pick out an unattractive guy.. make note of her reactions.. (In the field.. you'll be calibrated enough to know that women do NOT find you unattractive.. AND, when women DO find you attractive)

(red/blue): make her think of the color red for 2 minutes.. a house, rooms, stuff, all red.. 2 minutes.. calibrate.. then nothing.. clear her head.. and then blue.. calibrate.. and then let her clear her head.. and think of either red or blue, but tell her to NOT tell you.. just let her think of one color.. let it grow in intensity and become more vivid.. try and see if you can get a feel for what color she's thinking of.. (what you're 100% accurate in this game.. you're ready to naturally transition into microcalibration "cold-reading")

Only-virgins
02-03-08, 08:50 AM
Wait, that is all great and stuff but it doesn't help. I'm gonna see her tomorrow and don't know what to say!

GrkScorp
02-03-08, 12:59 PM
Wait, that is all great and stuff but it doesn't help. I'm gonna see her tomorrow and don't know what to say!

Well, I know this is going to sound cliche', but try and give what i'm about to say some thought..

There are no "magic" words, lines, or stories that you're going to tell her to make her fall in love with you.. Now, since that's the case.. it doesn't make sense to feel this pressure of "what should I say to her?".. Honestly.. just be able to talk.. have "moxie".. and have a normal/natural/just-the-way-you-are state of mind..

Voice Tone: (work-out) Make a small little speech about how it takes energy to break bonds, and how energy is released when bonds are formed.. write this speech out, go into a little detail about potential energy.. keep it simple.. about a paragraph or two.. Type it up, and start to say it to someone (a friend, or the wall).. Keep saying it.. and try and notice how you're feeling, the tone and quality of your voice.. the speed and the pace.. the rhythm.. everything.. and as you notice these things, and get more smooth and natural at it.. try and notice how comfortable you feel when you're talking about such a neutral subject.. to such a neutral audience (your friend, a wall, etc).. and in all honesty.. when you're talking with "her", just rest easy knowing that nobody is judging you.. seriously.. just like your friend, or the wall..

When you get bored of your speech.. try saying "I pledge allegiance to the flag".. the whole thing.. over and over again.. And get used to your normal, relaxed, care-free, all natural voice..

What do you talk about?

- Anything

Seriously.. you can talk about anything.. Milton, classical mythology, art history, toasters, anything.. anything.. ANYTHING..

I would sit here, telling you some stories to have in mind, what to memorize.. but all of that is fake.. don't memorize anything.. start off with a "hi".. and take it from there.. talk about whatever comes your way.. talk about it naturally.. and don't sit on the same subject for too long.. switch often.. only go back on topics if she asks you to.. and talk with your natural voice quality..

Keep your conscious mind clear, there's no thinking.. there's just doing.. there's just feeling..

- And if it doesn't happen exactly the way you want it to.. that's ok.. and i'll tell you why.. because you're growing.. it's a learning experience.. the best thing that can possibly happen, is you doing something wrong.. and you'll learn to not do it next time..

When you look at it that way OV, you can only either gain a relationship the way you like it (depending where you want to take it).. or a learning experience.. either way.. I hope you realize that you win both ways..

And with that in mind.. the only thing you should remember, besides your natural voice quality is.. there's no thinking.. there's just doing..

PS. If you find this the least bit helpful.. I always listen to Cat Stevens "The First Cut is the Deepest" just before I go out to talk to "her".. I close my eyes and sing along.. loud.. until i'm laughing.. smiling.. completely comfortable, up-beat, and ready to go out..

Best of luck OV, and hey.. remember.. just have fun.. ;)

GrkScorp
02-03-08, 02:09 PM
Moxie Tips & Pointers:

- Moxie takes practice, just like calibration.. think of it like conversational calibration.. the ability to instinctively take what you're handed, (even if it's nothing) and turn it into an interesting, fun, funny, emotionally stimulating conversation.. Moxie is also the ability to keep the conversation going (which does NOT mean talking about the same subject/topic forever and ever until the end of time).. but being able to feely/smoothly flow from topic to topic, and adding multiple layers to the conversation.. (not a single thread, but multiple threads)

Examples:

- Bad:

You: So, what do you do?
Her: What do you mean?
You: Like, what's your major?
Her: Film & Media Studies
You: Oh! (pause) What is that?
You: Really? Do you like it?
Her: Blah blah
You: (Now what?)

You: Hey, what kind of dog is that?
Her: It's a Yorkie
You: It's so cute, i've never seen those before
Her: Yeah, I got it at ____ for my ____
You: What's the little guy's name?
Her: _____
You: What kind of dog food do you feed it?
Her _____
You: (Starting to realize you can't keep begging for dear life on the same conversational thread)

These bad examples have several things in common.. The first is.. (THIS IS IMPORTANT) they try too hard to establish comfort and rapport.. How? Simple.. they ask questions.. far too many.. Do you remember being at some party when you were younger.. where you have old people come up to you that you really don't care much about.. What's you name? How old are you? What do you want to be when you grow up? Do you like your school? Blah blah.. Yeah, that's exactly the vibe you're going to be creating if you go into interview-mode.. so stay clear of the million questions.. Secondly, they fail to branch out new threads from what little they have to work with.. but more importantly; they fail to create new ones alltogether! Without this, the conversation will die out very quickly..

- Good:

You: Do you believe in rating people on a scale of 1-10, just on looks?
Her: No (I mean, she could say yes, but if you can work with a no, you can work with a yes)
You: Well, I don't.. but you know, this was something I was talking about with some friends of mine recently.. and you'd be suprised how "deep" such a "shallow" subject is.. But more than that.. I think scales like that, are much harder on girls than they are on guys..
Her: I think it's pretty much the same (Again, if you can work with this answer, you can work with better ones)
You: Well, if you think about it.. all the different industries out there, marketing to girls.. cosmetics, beauty, fashion, nutrition, diet, fitness, you name it.. from a very early age.. girls are under so much pressure to meet these "ideal" standards.. and if they don't.. they feel ugly..
Her: Well, I think the same goes for guys (Once again, if you can work with this answer, you can work with "Yeah, I agree with that")
You: I don't know.. When we were talking about it, guys just don't care.. they're not as affected as girls are.. because they just don't really have the same pressure on them.. Looks matter, but for a guy, they really don't matter that much.. for a girl though, it's not a matter of being shallow or not.. she's living in a society that puts all this pressure on her day after day about looks..

We can go on forever, and that's kind of the point.. You don't have to talk about this (just an example from a recent thread, that in real-life, could have easily drifted into something like that conversation).. the actual topic is not important.. but here's what is..

- Multiple layers/threads in the conversation: Notice, you very quickly build up the ability to talk about the 1-10 scale, your other friends, the pressure girls have to deal with and guys just don't understand, the different industries and their unfair and unethical tactics, and even transition into giving each other ratings on the scale (ladies first, and judge accordingly).. Think of it like options.. you can take the conversation several ways.. constantly giving each option some attention.. jumping around.. back and forth.. what you're saying is interesting, fun, funny.. but you're never talking about it for too long for it to get dull & boring.. you're not affraid to move on to other stuff.. becaues you always have things to talk about.. and you can transition smoothly.. it's just casual conversation.. not some effort to impress her with how interesting your stories/views are.. and that's the beauty of moxie..

- Statements, not Questions: When you make statements, and not questions.. you are comming off as assertive, in control, secure, and comfortable.. NOT rapport/comfort seeking.. You also never let go of the option to keep talking.. If you ask a question and she doesn't quite give the answer you were looking for.. you're going to have a hard time picking back up.. but with statements.. you ALWAYS LEAD THE CONVERSATION..

- Letting Statements Hang: This is her green-light, open-chance to give her opinion/view on something.. in effect, to open up.. to get more involved.. and feel like she's finishing the thought you were throwing out there.. this is something friends do, which is why it's a nice and subtle comfort-building element.. when you're both on the same "wavelength" (or at least, feel as if you are).. there's more of a connection.. and obviously more comfort..

- Strong Frame: No, i'm not talking about frame-control here.. The fact that you are making statements, and are leading the conversation, means that you are in control of the conversation, and the interaction.. between the two of you.. you're in control.. in the lead.. When she's "allowed" to speak and give her view/opinion while "you're talking".. she feels good about being part of that frame.. and when you're "accepting" of her.. slowly.. via the conversation.. she's effectively having a great time.. with you.. and it get's rationlized as (OV, is just really really fun to talk to.. you know that if you're talking with him, you'll NEVER run out of things to talk about.. and he's always interesting and fun.. and funny sometimes).. all of a sudden, YOU (not your conversation) are "fun, funny, interesting, emotionally stimulating".. all because of moxie.. ;)

GrkScorp
02-03-08, 02:59 PM
Think of the dating market as a real estate market, with buyers and sellers.. who have money and homes to offer.. this market will clear at one point.. hopefully.. won't it?

- Wrong market structure: This is the market where YOU take on the role of the buyer.. and SHE takes on the role of the seller.. You go around looking desperately to find any homes that are for sale.. and of the ones that are, you may or may not be interested.. but there's no "price" listed.. so you approach the owners.. and make an offer.. They simply don't sell.. You keep throwing money their way and making offers which they continue to reject.. as you and other buyers do this.. and as the seller keeps rejecting, all that has happened in effect is that SHE now thinks "wow, the price of my home is worth so much above market; i'm going to hang on to it, g-d knows how much I can get".. Leaving you without the house, and looking like an idiot wasting so much time and money to make higher and higher offers.. (Sound familiar? Typical guy model)

- Right market structure: This is the market where YOU take on the role of the seller.. and SHE is the buyer.. I want you to notice first of all, what this means.. You are exchanging goods, but YOU are getting the raw end of the deal.. and she knows it.. A dollar today is NOT as valuable as a dollar in the future.. So her "money" today, will not have the same "purchasing power" in the furture.. as it gets old, in time, inflation will de-value it.. and it will not be able to attract.. cough cough.. buy the same home it can today.. in the future.. But your home resists this effect.. it simply doesn't lose that value over time.. So the first thing YOU do, is let the world know that your house is for sale.. no mention of price.. just that it's for sale.. at first She pretends not to notice, she wants to see how desperate you are, if you're going to chase after her to let her know how "for sale" it is.. but you don't.. you just passively display it to the world that it's for sale.. this great house.. that seems to be having an "open house" every so often.. and everyone seems to love it.. so now she comes in.. pretends not to be interested.. and will test to see how sure you are of the quality and value of your home.. "The roof is how OLD? Does it have central AC? Who was the previous owner? This room isn't BIG ENOUGH..".. when she realizes that you're unaffected because you're secure about your home.. it first bothers her.. but then she realizes that this is all she knows how to do.. so she eventually stops as her tactics get a little repetitive.. (you don't let her walk around the house forever, practically living there, without even paying rent, for free, you have to tell her to leave at one point, and let her feel that she's not welcome back after a couple of times if she's not serious about leaving an offer).. it may take some time.. but you'll start to pull offers from her.. (she'll try and get you to name a price, but you're not playing by her rules.. this is your house, your rules, and you're still waiting for an offer).. she makes one.. a low one.. then you talk again.. and still she continues to act disinterested, trying to get you to tell her a price.. but you don't.. eventually.. (when you know she's interested, and she knows you have other buyers interested).. she will make a higher offer.. and you may choose to accept or reject that offer.. or negotiate a higher one.. and you can keep doing this until you both settle on a price.. (market price).. but you're not looking for "cash-only".. you're looking for a "like-kind exchange" (the most romantic section of the Internal Revenue Code, Sec. 1031).. through conversation, you realize that she has like-kind property (an other house of her own).. at this point (but not prior, and not initially), YOU will be QUALIFYING her house to see if you are interested in it.. if you're NOT, you can take the cash (sex only).. if you ARE, you can go through with a like-kind exchange.. (a long-term relationship)

Remember, LOOKS are MONEY.. CHARACTER & PERSONALITY is the HOUSE.. but let's be conservative, and let's put YOUR looks aside.. let's just focus on your house.. you're going to have it up for sale.. not desperate to sell.. you're happy.. getting offers.. until you get something interesting.. But you're NOT looking for MONEY.. because it will be worth sh*t in due time.. Take a look at your mother, and your grandmother.. that's where the value of MONEY is headed.. you're looking for a HOUSE.. so you're just pulling offers from different buyers.. not interested in the MONEY they're offering.. while the overall VALUE of the offer matters, you would like the majority of that VALUE to be from the HOUSE, and not from the MONEY.. so this complex sequence, allows you to discover a HOUSE you like, then look at the total VALUE.. and see if you still want to go through with the like-kind-exchange.. It also allows you to get FAIR MARKET VALUE for your HOUSE.. (otherwise, you're shooting offers to sellers who are dreaming and thinking that their hut is some palace worth millions.. that their house comes at "too high a price" one no one can afford..).. As explained earlier in this thread.. YOU have the power to do this.. so go do it!

IndiReloaded
03-03-08, 02:20 AM
What's the worse thing that can happen, OV?

Imagine that, and then realize that probably won't happen. Relax & try to be yourself. Smile lots, you'll do fine hun.

misombra
03-03-08, 02:44 AM
this may or may not help but i remember this from a communication class i took.

trust and rapport begins with small disclosures on each persons part, moving onto bigger disclosures.

for example in the beginning of relationships people usually start off by revealing things about themselves. ("i have a dog, his name is blah blah blah.")

person 1: small disclosure
person2: equally small disclosure.
person 1: a little more information...
person 2: a little more information...

and after a little time the things that get disclosed are more intimate and personal.

thing is both people need to be willing to disclose the same amount of info. you can't reveal something to somebody who's not willing to reveal themselves to you. you have to keep the information about the same.

i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

GrkScorp
03-03-08, 06:59 AM
i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

Please do! Really great points.. keep 'em comming mis..

What's great about rapport & comfort building is that it paves the way for a strong sense of connection with people (more importantly, when they feel that towards you).. "people, not just exclusive to women, this applies to everyone"

- Same Language: I'm not talking about English.. But people have their own unique models of being aware of the world.. (Visual, Auditory, Kino).. Personally, I get along much better and also feel that sense of connection with Kino people, because i'm Kino myself.. You may feel that connection with a friend of yours, and chances are, he/she is either (V,A,K) just like you.. Learn to listen.. for phrases that give away this information.. "I see what you're saying, I hear you, You could feel it in the person's voice, it was so sunny outside today, it was so quiet outside today, it was so warm outside today".. Try and keep tally inside your head, there's usually a dominant model everyone has.. the first one to count up to 3 wins

- Implicit connection: The words "we, us, our" imply that the two of you share a level of connection perhaps greater than that of a common stranger.. Use them during conversation, but casually.. "I'm sure our parents had it much harder than us, we have it easy".. Notice how it's also a weak lock-in tool.. "So, where are we going?" is more likely to get the two of you leaving together than "Where are you going now?"

- Trance words & phrases: People have their own lingo.. and it's ususally the result of their social circle.. But they feel more comfortable with people who understand and speak that lingo.. because in effect, that lingo is the language they understand most.. Look out for phrases and words used over and over again by a person, and make it part of your vocabulary, put priority in those words! And use them during conversation..

- Verbal Mirroring: Similarly, people are more comfortable with their own rate, tone, pitch, pace, and rhythm of voice.. So try and blend your voice halfway to their voice, and you'll notice how they start to match your voice.. then that mirroring takes place, there's immediately a sense of comfort..

- Non-Verbal Mirroring: Is she lying back, well.. transition slowly into lying back over the course of 2 minutes.. leaning towards you? Well, likewise, do the same over the course of 2 minutes.. Is she playing with her glass? Maybe she's nervous.. start to "unconsciously" play with your glass aswell, and you're sending the message to her that you're feeling the same way.. Non-verbal mirroring is powerful.. You can go as far as matching breathing, movement frequency, and duration of eye contact until your eyes are almost glued to eachother.. Tracey Cox calls this "toffee eyes", where it can be hard to look away, and you may feel as if there's some sticky-ness or friction as you try and move your eyes away from looking at the other person, because unconsciously, you don't want to look away.. The biggest form of non-verbal mirroring is (kino).. that's right, touching.. you touch, she touches back, and as comfort and familiarity to touch grows, and your compliance threasholds get higher, touching can get a little bit "hotter"

- Acceptance: Fact of life, people like others who like them.. but I feel this needs a little clarification.. people like others who like them, for as long as those others aren't (needy, desperate, creepy, pushy, etc).. In short, we like people who like us, but have no devious intentions, who don't want anything from us.. So the best way to think about this, is "acceptance".. We like people who are accepting of us, and we feel like us for who we are, not like they're TRYING to like us, or TRYING to make us feel liked.. but at the same time, are not judgemental or "too good" to talk to us..

- Modesty: "I don't mean to brag, but.. (bragging)" does not count as being modest.. Let's face it.. everyone is different.. some people are creative, others are analytical, others are clumsy, others are athletic, etc.. And in between all that, we all have things we're "better" at, and things we're not.. We KNOW this, it's not news to us! But we don't like people who remind us constantly and shove it in our face as a means of maintaining the status of their ego sky-high.. This is why, when around people you want to establish comfort with, do NOT mention your success, or abilities, or talents.. it's show-offy and makes them uncomfortable, simply because you raise the bar too high.. Let them feel comfortable around you, and discover all of that on their own as THEY take the initiative to dig for that information.. "You never told me you had a Masters! How much was your GPA! You work for who! Wow! How come you didn't tell me?" All of a sudden, through their own digging, they feel more comfortable around you, because they unsonsciously come to realize that you're not the type of person to make them feel little around you.. and at the same time, they're standing next to this great person who never makes them feel "lesser".. that's powerful..

Mish
03-03-08, 09:39 AM
i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

Yeh miso, tell us more :)

misombra
03-03-08, 10:23 AM
okay so you know some people who just say too much stuff right away you know?

person 1: i have a dog named sabrina.
person 2: my mother died in a freak, water basketing weaving accident.

whoa person 2, slow down a little. too much info. would you trust a person who disclosed too much without getting as much back? i wouldn't. i would think they were weird and the whole thing would be out.

the trick is probably to disclose just a little more than the other person and see if they disclose a little something to you.

person 1: i have a dog named sabrina.
person 2: i have a dog named al. how old is your dog?
person 1: she's 2. how old is your dog?
person 2: 4. how did you get your dog?
person 1: funny story cause blah blah blah.........................

Mish
03-03-08, 01:50 PM
Thanks Miso

What happens if all the conversations flow smoothly, but you're not getting those signals to take it a notch further? What do you recommend as the next step when you've built a rapport, but unclear where to go from there (you want to be subtle)?

misombra
03-03-08, 02:04 PM
if you're not getting those signals then you should give them. ask them a question and encourage them to disclose something.

you could also disclose something about yourself, leaving the other person more comfortable to disclose something to you.

Mish
03-03-08, 02:21 PM
By a notch further I actually meant to take conversation somewhere else, like dinner ;) (Without being obvious, i.e. if it's a no to leave a door open for another safe attempt somewhere down the line)

misombra
03-03-08, 10:11 PM
sorry dear. leap of faith thing. i don't have the secret to get a girl to have dinner with you. i was just trying to help ov a little with his interaction. he probably won't care though cause he doesn't listen to me.

IndiReloaded
04-03-08, 02:11 AM
okay so you know some people who just say too much stuff right away you know?

the trick is probably to disclose just a little more than the other person and see if they disclose a little something to you.

This is good advice for conversation & growing relationships.

I seem to remember Nomas posting something about gradually increasing intimacy that ran along the same lines? Mbe in the archives someplace? Don't remember if that was on this forum tho.

IndiReloaded
04-03-08, 02:15 AM
i was just trying to help ov a little with his interaction. he probably won't care though cause he doesn't listen to me.

OV doesn't listen to *anyone* tho unless the logic makes absolute sense to him, lol. Its what makes OV, well, OV. ;)

I listen to you Mis. Not going on that trip ;)

GrkScorp
04-03-08, 02:23 AM
sorry dear. leap of faith thing. i don't have the secret to get a girl to have dinner with you. i was just trying to help ov a little with his interaction. he probably won't care though cause he doesn't listen to me.

:upset: Aww, hey no.. guys, mis gave really great advice on the topic.. and you really should listen to her..

As for no "secret" to get someone to have dinner with you.. guys.. this works both ways.. and yes, it's no secret..

What i've noticed personally, in both directions (male-to-female & female-to-male) is that the "thing" that gets you the date, the lunch, the dinner, is NOT the line you use.. it's not the question, because sometimes is not even a question.. instead.. it's primarily attraction as a motivator to say "yes" and comply, and enough comfort to prevent resistance to the "yes" the other person wants to say..

Flashing back to all those times, the reason I failed to get a dinner, or a date, or a number, has never been the fault of the "line" i've said.. because THERE IS NO LINE.. instead, it's been because of failure to build enough attraction, connection, and comfort..

And guess what, every time I DID get a date, number, dinner, etc.. THERE WAS NO LINE, sometimes no questions, most of the times it was just a statement.. but each time, there was more than enough attraction and connection to act as a motivator for her actions.. and enough comfort to not hold her back from doing anything she wanted to do.. At that point, anything from what I told Mish, the "Why don't we ___" to a "Have you ever been to _____? I'm going for lunch there in about an hour, you should come, I owe you for helping me with ____".. to a simple "Hey, let's go to ___".. all work.. because she wants them to work.. and there's nothing holding her back..

In the other direction, i've always rejected (directly) requests from women I didn't feel comfortable enough with.. and with women who I wasn't that attracted to, i've either rejected (indirectly) or i've ACCEPTED.. the difference was the attention each paid to comfort.. I know that someone may be so-so on the outside, only mildly attractive, and it may not be till days later that you feel a strong connection with them.. so nobody is automatically disqualified from initial attraction alone.. but comfort is HUGE! Especially from people i'm not that attracted to yet.. if they come on too strong, there's a natural defensive (pull-back & away) reaction.. comfort is so HUGE, that even for women you're attracted to, a strong come-on can raise questions in your head.. "Hmm, this is weird.. I'm not exactly the hottest guy on the planet, why is she doing this? Is she desperate? Has it been a while? Is she one of those psychotic stalker chicks? Is this part of her plot to take my kindeys and sell them on the black market while I wake up in her bathtub full of ice?"

But it all begins with that first initial encounter.. and the journey takes place in attraction.. subtle attraction, so subtle it never comes off as you trying.. so subtle, a rational person wouldn't be able to consider what you're doing as an attempt to attract her (so, no flirting, no weak "just kidding" attempts at seduction and teasing.. none of that).. but because she is your specific audience, in her mind she's putting 2 & 2 together.. "wow, this guy is so amazing".. and slowly, almost without you having to worry about it, you're building up attraction.. It's one of those things that just happens.. the less you consciously try.. the more it happens (because "trying" is given away, see calibration, it works both ways)

And attraction is the bait, for the actions you want.. (this is starting to sound like fishing or training, but i'm just trying to make an analogy).. Your line is not what's going to get her to do anything.. she has to WANT to do it.. And when she does (strong attraction).. she's at a conflict of interest.. she's looking for excuses to do what she wants to do.. (she'll rarely come up with any on her own, that would make her feel like a wh0re, cheap, easy, etc.. anything she's been culturally/socially programmed to feel.. so it's your job to come up with excuses).. on top of that.. she doesn't want to be judged for what she's about to do.. (by her friends, her family, you, or herself!), so even if you offer the best excuse in the world "You're a cello player? My parents got a $50,000 cello at an auction, but nobody even plays it, it's just sitting back at my place, such a shame, looks like such a beautiful instrument too, you should come see it, try and play it, I could just imagine how it would sound" she'll have to say "no" if she feels that she's going to be judged for what she's about to do.. (not enough comfort; this is why it's harder to kiss for the first time if the two of you are not alone or around her friends, but establish enough comfort, and all road-blocks and resistance are "poof" gone)

This is why what mis mentioned is so dead-on.. it's a transition.. and it always starts out small.. and slowly builds up.. almost naturally.. without effort.. While you're building up attraction.. you're doing so under the illusion of comfort building "casual conversation".. so in effect, you ARE doing both.. you're not making an "effort" or "trying" to build comfort, so it allows her to be at ease, feel safe and secure around you.. (this guy doesn't want anything from me.. remember, don't be needy, desperate, creepy, beg, or pushy).. but all you're doing is: building enough attraction to act as a strong motivator for her actions.. building enough comfort to remove all resistance and road-blocks from her doing what she wants to do without feeling "guilty, bad, judged" about it.. (and hey, for now.. i'm just talking about lunch/dinner.. don't let your mind wonder)

If you learn to attract-only.. you'll have them chasing.. but not much else.. add comfort-building into that.. and you can litterally feel her being freed from her chains.. free to do exactly what she wants to do.. but she still won't do it without an excuse! But that's ok.. because now all she needs is an excuse.. even a sh*tty one will do.. with a strong motivator & zero inhibition in place, it almost doesn't matter what you say.. but don't get lazy.. give her a good story to tell to herself and her friends of why she gave you her number, why she went out for lunch, why she went on a trip with you, why she came with you on the weekend, how you had sex the first time.. that's what the excuse is there for.. "Let's go back to my place or get a room and have sex" is not an excuse.. even if that's exactly what she wants to do.. she'll have to say "no".. afford her the luxury and comfort of some plausable excuse.. (touch) "Let me see your hand.. interesting.. your life line is really good, and long.. that's good.. do you know what this line over here is? Well.. it also looks really good.. Very good actually, I think it's your dominant line.. It's the retard line.. it means you're a retard" (notice how you shift focus from the fact that you're touching her as you continue to read her palm, to humor.. and don't appear like you're trying too hard to get her attention via reading her palm.. you don't take it too seriously.. you're not trying to impress her.. and that's the beauty of it.. plus you see it off with PD-humor)..

For a number or date, you need to "seed".. (seed: make indirect suggestions about a place or day you should meet up on "i'm busy this whole week, but at least I have the weekend all to myself, ah! finally, some time to relax" .. "my friends got engaged recently, over at The Boathouse, do you know what i'm talking about? It's right inside Central Park, it's beautiful.. if I had to pick a place to do it, that would be it.. right in front of it's own lake.. you have to go there.. I haven't been there in a while myself, anyway.. so they were basically seeing eachother for.. blah blah").. dig for seeds.. (her seeds).. and then connect the two.. "Oh so hey! Why don't we go to ___ on ___..".. Also, if you couldn't dig for seeds.. Mish, that's what the "Why don't we ___" thing is for.. notice how it automatically digs for seeds! But again, don't focus on lines (the mistake guys make).. lines are really not that important.. if she wants to go back to your place, or the The Boathouse, or to give you her number.. she WILL.. think about that! You should therefore be more focused on building attraction and comfort (to counter moral/ethical/social/judgement resistance and other emotional road-blocks).. and the "excuse" won't matter too much if she both WANTS to do it & feels no reservations or inhibitions about doing it.. whatever "it" happens to be..

bohemiandonut
04-03-08, 10:15 AM
Scorp: Your posts have gotten much much better. The housing paradigm is genius.

P.S. Is gotten a word? German, perhaps?

bohemiandonut
04-03-08, 10:49 AM
Oh, also, I was wondering if this:

"Hey M, just wanted to let you know that I still like you, but I have no devious intentions, and I don't want anything from you."

...would be a good text message for a sex massage.




- Acceptance: Fact of life, people like others who like them.. but I feel this needs a little clarification.. people like others who like them, for as long as those others aren't (needy, desperate, creepy, pushy, etc).. In short, we like people who like us, but have no devious intentions, who don't want anything from us.. So the best way to think about this, is "acceptance".. We like people who are accepting of us, and we feel like us for who we are, not like they're TRYING to like us, or TRYING to make us feel liked.. but at the same time, are not judgemental or "too good" to talk to us..

GrkScorp
04-03-08, 11:29 AM
Oh, also, I was wondering if this:

"Hey M, just wanted to let you know that I still like you, but I have no devious intentions, and I don't want anything from you."

...would be a good text message for a sex massage.

No.. that's not what was ment by that..

Refer back to calibration.. When you're talking.. everything you do/say, or fail to do/say.. is simply "content".. but that content goes through a filter "intentions & motives"..

Example:

- A good friend of yours comes up to you and says.. "Hey! How are you doing?"

- A salesman comes up to you and says.. "Hey! How are you doing?"

The two are not the same.. in fact, very very different.. before the salesman even opens his/her mouth, you know they want something from you.. you know their "nice" act is exactly that.. an "act".. and he/she doesn't have your trust.. you don't feel safe and secure about letting your guard down around this person, because his/her actions have made it clear what intentions and motivations he/she has..

The same goes for "try-hard" compliments "you're so smart, you're so amazing, you're so logical, you're so creative, you're so funny".. It's better to let the other person FEEL these things, and realize them around you, via YOU, rather than try and force that feeling onto them..

So, the solution is simple.. be completely free from devious intentions.. don't try and GET something out of this person, don't NEED or PUSH for something out of this person.. Be sure and confident in yourself that it'll happen naturally, because that's exactly how it happens.. seemingly naturally..

Now, we like people who like us.. but it's not that simple.. we like people who like us because of something we did.. something that has justified them liking us.. something that supports that feeling they have for us.. sort of like evidence.. evidence we feel we were the cause of.. so we earned and deserve that legitimate respect..

The best way to do this is to allow people to prove themselves to you.. to give them that chance, and to give them the FEELING (without excplicitly saying it) that they have proved themselves to you and impressed you in some way.. Being "accepting" of them, and allowing them the chance to demonstrate their worth and value around you.. rather than trying hard and desperately to make them feel good around you through direct compliments (bad salesman technique)

Routine: (the 2-1-2)

- For the first two minutes, be accepting of the other person, give them your attention, and show them that you're paying attention through nodding, eye contact, and verbal cues that tell them you're listening..

- Then, for one minute, let your mind get distracted, think about something else related to what they're saying, but let your focus drift.. it'll show.. your eyes will be naturally distracted, your verbal cues will stop, your face will show it, that they are no longer holding your attention.. but more importantly, at this point.. the other person will try and earn your attention back (and at the same time, realize that you're NOT trying hard to be nice around them, when you're not interested, it will show)..

- For the next two minutes, be very interested in what they have to say.. (as if they just did a good job of doing/saying something to earn your attention again).. pay very close attention to details, and even ask questions..

By the end of this routine, the person will feel they just earned your attention, like they said something interesting, like you were impressed to some degree, and like you are not trying hard to be nice or pretending to like them because they've seen how you will not hesitate to lose interest (that's not something someone does who's trying hard to impress!).. only do this routine once, and only during the beginning of an interaction..

PS. in what way exactly have they become "better"? Is there anything in particular you would like to see more of?

misombra
05-03-08, 01:15 AM
that's true. i'll have to amend my dinner comment. there is a secret.. let the conversation go there naturally.

i'll tell you another secret, a girl knows if she would date you the moment she looks at you.

so if that's true, and another person is talking to you and the conversation naturally goes there, then it's likely that both people wanted to go in the first place and it was probably decided on before either person brought it up. the trick was keeping the conversation going as equally as possible.

person 1 may know more about person 2, but not too much more. and that opens up the conversation, if one is willing and comfortable, which if you've followed this method, one will most likely be willing. because like gskorp, they don't need anything from you, they don't want want anything from you, they just want to talk to you and get to know you. and that's all you want from them.

what a beautiful way to build trust and communication in a relationship.

GrkScorp
05-03-08, 06:26 AM
i'll tell you another secret, a girl knows if she would date you the moment she looks at you.

so if that's true, and another person is talking to you and the conversation naturally goes there, then it's likely that both people wanted to go in the first place and it was probably decided on before either person brought it up. the trick was keeping the conversation going as equally as possible.

Case: my "friend" Maria. Met this guy, no not me, who she really liked.. called me up 3am to tell me about it; here are some important bits from her whole account "When he first walked in, I thought, hey, he's not bad looking.. but you know, the whole place was packed with guys, and he didn't come to talk, so i'm like whatever.. blah blah.. so it turns out he used to write poems (like Maria does now) and we were talking about that, and then just fate, and spiritiality, anything.. it was fcukn' amazing i'm telling you.. I was like, wow, I really like this person, this person is like amazing.. blah blah.. so then he tells me he's going outside for a smoke (both smokers), and i'm thinking to myself, yeah right you're going out for a smoke.. he just wants me to tag along to go outside and talk.. but i'm like, whatever, you know? This guy is cool, and he's cute, so I play along and go out for a smoke even though I didn't really feel like smoking right then.. blah blah.. we just talked for hours.. maybe like just one hour really, but it seemed alot longer if you know what I mean.. and like, we both didn't want to go back inside.. so he asked me how i'm getting home.. normally i'd just walk, i'm like 4 blocks away.. so I told him that I would take a cab home, and he offered to drive me home.. so before he took it off parked, we started kissing.. blah blah (no, you're not missing anything, relax).. so then he took me home.. he didn't even catch on to the fact that I was like 4 blocks away, guys man.. so before I got out, he asked me for my number.. and like.. later on.. the same day, he called me and we talked for like an other 2 hours.. and we're going to go out again this weekend.."

It's raw convo like this that begs to be analyzed.. one of the many things that struck me as interesting is when she said "we're going to go out again this weekend".. They didn't go out in the first place, they just met, there was no date, what does she mean AGAIN? So it's interesting to notice her unconscious use or choice of language and words/phrases to capture what she's feeling and convey it to (you/me) the listener..

Anyway, I haven't met the guy, but i've been pushing her forever to go out and see some other people (not just for sex) after her break-up nearly 5 months ago.. So i'm happy she's feeling that way..

Yes, the best way to really get a feel for what it's like is to just go out there and learn for yourself.. In this case, the guy (Mike); (1) DHV-ed via his looks [fine, fair enough, but if you notice, that's not his hook-point, that just placed him on her radar, that just created some interest, but not attraction], (2) he came in, opened, and "just talked".. but infer something important from her account of the whole thing [Mike never did anything to come off as "trying hard" or "thinking" about what he was doing/saying.. except for the going outside to smoke thing, which she quickly picked up on], (lock-in point, she's interested but needs more DHV-ing & comfort building still), (3) through natural conversation (more unconscious DHV-ing & attraction-building), Mike was able to establish enough attraction to get her to want to comply and at the same time, enough comfort for her to not feel the need to resist complying to his indirect request to go outside where it was quiet and talk "excuse: go out for a smoke", which she complied with, because she WANTED to comply, and felt comfortable doing so.. (hook-point, you've DHV-ed and it's paid off, give yourself a pat on the back.. you've established enough comfort aswell.. from now on, all you're doing is establishing deeper levels of comfort to break down any and all resistance to compliance "sorry for lack of a better word, I don't intend for it to come off as some type of degrading dog-training type thing, blame Webster's..")

And so, we come to the point, of making a complete 360.. finishing the circle.. You know when you try hard to do something, and it's kind of hard to get it done.. but then, when it's not really on your mind, you have an almost super-human ability to get it done with a refreshing sense of ease and clarity? (the "when you're looking for it, you never find it, when you don't need it, it's right in front of you" effect).. Well, to keep things short.. your unconscious can move mountains.. you'd be blown away at all the things you can REALLY do, when you're not really thinking about it.. They happen seemingly automatically and naturally.. to add to that, more efficiently and effectively..

That's simply because the concsious is the domain of "analysis & logic", and the unconscious is the domain of "emotion & imagination".. Feel free to use whichever saying you like more..

- Where will and imagination are in conflict, the will WILL always lose
- Where will and imagination are in conflict, imagination will always win

No, it's not some trick, they're both the same.. the same exact meaning gets across.. take a look at it again if you don't believe me..

So, fellow guys.. this is perhaps the most "chick" worthy advice you're ever going to hear.. but it holds so much truth to it.. Intentions are everything.. if you have the wrong idea on your mind, if something is off and out of sequence.. then you will inevitably mess things up and go tragically wrong (i.e. thinking about how to talk to her, what to say, how to impress her, etc.. basically THINKING about outer-game.. will throw everything off.. refer back to calibration and see why.. it will show, because it's a conscious thought process, and you're overloading your unconscious with feeling nervous and afraid as it thinks about the zillion ways things can go and takes a dive in the world of uncertainty)

Well then? What would be the contra? This powerful mentality to have when meeting someone.. "I know my value & worth very well, it's not inflated, but nothing anyone can do or say can deflate it either, because i'm perfectly aware of who I am.. I think this person is attractive enough to POSSIBLY qualify as a gf, but i'll have to see if i'm really interested and feel that connection with something special about her.. There's no need to show-off or try and impress, because I could care less for her favor, we both know I would be the one doing her the favor, but i'm not about to shove that in her face.. no.. nor have to remind her.. If she's worth it, i'll more than gladly do her the favor.. but that's what i'm trying to find out first.. I'll be "accepting" of her, and just give us both the opportunity to just talk to eachother, and get lost in eachother.. understand and connect with eachother perfectly and completely, but naturally.. and if that connection isn't there, then I won't be mean.. but it just means i'll have to look for someone else who does qualify.. however, if that connection is there, well.. :D"

That's a mentality.. a state of mind to be in.. constantly if you can.. be in this mentality, and presist through all attempts to get you out of this mentality (remember, it's not in your nature to yield.. but it is in your nature to persist).. So sit down and think about what exactly this mentality means to you, how it applies to you exactly, until you start to notice it being stored permanently in the back of your mind.. deep in your unconscious, as a permanent part of who you are, now.. As you become more aware of your new seemingly natural unconscious mentality.. try and notice the changes in your behavior, both the things you do and say.. Your choice of words/phrases, tone of voice, eye movements, body-language, facial expressions, everything really.. will in some way or another be filtered through this mentality you now have.. and the best part is.. this is all Inner Game..

There's no THINKING, there's just DOING..

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 09:12 AM
Thats a lot of crap. Anyways, I failed with this girl...or lost. Whatever you wanna call it. I have been kind of deteriorating in mental health and I just can't deal with some of this pain I am feeling (has nothing to do with her). I either get through this or I don't know what to do. I think I need to just relax and lay low for a while, thoughts of suicide are never a good sign. I have been slipping a bit at work, I need to get back to doing good there. I feel like shit.

Mish
05-03-08, 09:18 AM
Thats a lot of crap. Anyways, I failed with this girl...or lost. Whatever you wanna call it. I have been kind of deteriorating in mental health and I just can't deal with some of this pain I am feeling (has nothing to do with her). I either get through this or I don't know what to do. I think I need to just relax and lay low for a while, thoughts of suicide are never a good sign. I have been slipping a bit at work, I need to get back to doing good there. I feel like shit.

Maybe going for relationships is not what you need right now then. If you go into one feeling anything less than 100% at peace with yourself, I can almost guarantee you you won't be having a very good time in one. Maybe what you need for now is to spend time with friends, go out, have a good time. Pick up something interesting like a sport or playing a guitar, something that can make you feel proud of yourself.

Then, when you're ready you can come back to catching the fish in the sea :)

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 09:27 AM
Maybe going for relationships is not what you need right now then. If you go into one feeling anything less than 100% at peace with yourself, I can almost guarantee you you won't be having a very good time in one. Maybe what you need for now is to spend time with friends, go out, have a good time. Pick up something interesting like a sport or playing a guitar, something that can make you feel proud of yourself.

Then, when you're ready you can come back to catching the fish in the sea :)
I completely dis-agree. If I am 100% at peace with myself I either am IN a relationship already as I think it maybe a part of reaching that 100% or I won't need to get one cause I won't want one because I will be 100% satisfied anyways.

Mish
05-03-08, 09:32 AM
I completely dis-agree. If I am 100% at peace with myself I either am IN a relationship already as I think it maybe a part of reaching that 100% or I won't need to get one cause I won't want one because I will be 100% satisfied anyways.

You can be 100% at peace with yourself without being in a relationship. You don't need another person to be at peace with yourself. You don't go into a relationship to plug some holes inside of you, it won't work out for you this way.

If you don't want to be in a relationship once you're 100% at peace that's completely your choice to make. Though, you might get curious what it will be like in the company of another likewise peaceful person.

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 09:34 AM
You can be 100% at peace with yourself without being in a relationship. You don't need another person to be at peace with yourself. You don't go into a relationship to plug some holes inside of you, it won't work out for you this way.

If you don't want to be in a relationship once you're 100% at peace that's completely your choice to make. Though, you might get curious what it will be like in the company of another likewise peaceful person.

Companionship is plugging a hole that is human necessity to socialize. Being 100% at peace would mean to NEED and WANT (which are the same thing actually) nothing. If I am curious about something means I am looking for something over there. :)

misombra
05-03-08, 09:36 AM
this is just an excuse to be miserable about losing that old high school girl.

ov, i'm afraid of you spending your whole life miserable over this. you must change your thinking.

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 09:44 AM
this is just an excuse to be miserable about losing that old high school girl.

ov, i'm afraid of you spending your whole life miserable over this. you must change your thinking.

What excuse?

Mish
05-03-08, 10:27 AM
Companionship is plugging a hole that is human necessity to socialize.

It's not really plugging an insecurity hole though. You can be 100% at peace with yourself and at the same time socialize with others.

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 10:41 AM
this is just an excuse to be miserable about losing that old high school girl.

ov, i'm afraid of you spending your whole life miserable over this. you must change your thinking.

That her thing? I think I will be fine. I can feel love waiting for me around the corner, it is bound to happen soon again. :D ... or else I don't know what I am gonna do.


It's not really plugging an insecurity hole though. You can be 100% at peace with yourself and at the same time socialize with others.

Never mentioned anything about insecurity. In general human companionship satisfies certain needs.

bohemiandonut
05-03-08, 10:57 AM
Life is not a race you win by finishing first.

No, that will not help you.

Mish
05-03-08, 11:01 AM
Never mentioned anything about insecurity. In general human companionship satisfies certain needs.

Not being 100% at peace with yourself means having an insecurity(s), this is something you don't need in a relationship. Work to fix them up first, then you won't have relationship with problems.

Mish
05-03-08, 11:33 AM
Flashing back to all those times, the reason I failed to get a dinner, or a date, or a number, has never been the fault of the "line" i've said.. because THERE IS NO LINE.. instead, it's been because of failure to build enough attraction, connection, and comfort..

And guess what, every time I DID get a date, number, dinner, etc.. THERE WAS NO LINE, sometimes no questions, most of the times it was just a statement.. but each time, there was more than enough attraction and connection to act as a motivator for her actions.. and enough comfort to not hold her back from doing anything she wanted to do.. At that point, anything from what I told Mish, the "Why don't we ___" to a "Have you ever been to _____? I'm going for lunch there in about an hour, you should come, I owe you for helping me with ____".. to a simple "Hey, let's go to ___".. all work.. because she wants them to work.. and there's nothing holding her back..


Just out of curiosity (it never happened to me) but if after all of the above you go for a kiss just to listen to "I don't want to loose you as a friend" speech, what do you do from there? Is there a way out? Do you stay friends or distance? I guess you'd have to be very careful with the timing of something like that.

bohemiandonut
05-03-08, 02:18 PM
Okay GrkScorp, I decided I don't have time for this dating bullshit and I just want my mean ex-girlfriend back. Besides altering my cognitive frame so that I in actuality do NOT want her back, or publically dating a bunch of high value sluts, what can I do to get the bitch back?

Bitches are such sluts.

GrkScorp
05-03-08, 02:32 PM
Just out of curiosity (it never happened to me) but if after all of the above you go for a kiss just to listen to "I don't want to loose you as a friend" speech, what do you do from there? Is there a way out? Do you stay friends or distance? I guess you'd have to be very careful with the timing of something like that.

Well, hopefully.. you never reach to that point to begin with.. That's not something you should worry about.. seriously..

And I say that because, there are two modes of being in:

- Calibrated
- Miscalibrated (usually the case with one-itis)

For as long as you've started talking, attraction is building up, you're being unpredictable and emotionally stimulating, you progress with touching mutually, there's both convo & kino comfort, and you start to feel that mutual sense of connection.. Kissing is the natural next step.. in fact, you can feel it just by the mood you've set up with your strong and powerful frame.. you can tell without even looking at her puppy-dog eyes all watered up, her face glued onto your direction, her lips getting heavy and lazy, her breathing getting tense, deeper, slower..., building up for that moment..

The biggest myth is, miscalibrating a kiss.. I'm not saying it doesn't happen.. people get struck by lightning all the time, but i'm sure you went outside your house today.. and similarly..., if miscalibration is going to happen, it's going to take place during "attraction".. Why?

- Remember, from the moment you start talking, and she's talking back.. it's on! (You haven't opened NYC JAPs, with hissing that sounds a lot like "Get lost!... I'm not interested!... Ugh, loser!".. I call it hissing, because if they were truly unaffected, and not validation/ego hungry, they wouldn't "hiss" in an attempt to lower my perceived value relative to their own.. but they do hiss, and all that arms me with, is information, that they are putting up an act, they're insecure, and more vulnerable than average girls ironically enough)

- Girls won't ALLOW themselves to get emotionally aroused/stimulated around you, if they don't first determine that you meet a certain quality threashold (no, relax.. not this ideal, utopian, perfect standard she dreams of the perfect man being.. just a few marks off a mental checklist; he's fcukable, he's confident, he's not a push-over, he's understanding, he has some status (financial), he has some status (social, friends), other people like him alot, other women find him attractive, he doesn't seem like he's trying to get anything from me or desperate/needy in any way.. let's see where this takes us).. from that, she'll ALLOW herself to fall into that attracted state with you.. in some cases, searching desperately herself for things the two of you have in common to form a sense of chemistry and connection..

- Why? Simple.. Would you benefit from the sexual pleasure a fat/ugly girl would provide.. I don't mean to be harsh, but think about it.. I'm sure there would be SOME mode of pleasure there for you.. And as you would start to feel that, you would try and make it stop.. You would prevent it from happening.. because she doesn't meet a certain quality threashold.. Likewise, a girl would put the breaks on the whole thing WAY before things would get to "kissing".. she doesn't want a low-quality guy emotionally arousing/stimulating her, much less kissing her..

And honestly, from 16 to 23.. one thing i've never miscalibrated (and believe me, i've been notorious for miscalibration) is "kissing".. Neither have ANY of my guy friends; (except for my ex-best friend Mike)... BUT! In the event it DOES by some freak chance happen..

1. (Preferred method, honestly) Analyze the situation; if it's clear that you miscalibrated, tell her "let's not, the last thing i'm looking for are more friends" and leave; but as you are, make note at that very moment what went wrong, so you don't make the same mistake again.

2. Analyze, but it's clear that you properly calibrated! In this case, if she's not a virgin with a very conservative family or religion, then she has a very sick idea of playing and acting coy.. If she's the former, tell her "I understand, but i'm not interested in being friends.. (the "..." implies stacking something comfort-building into that!)".. if she's the latter, RUN! Yes, women like to feel desired, adored, like some highly valued prize, that needs to constantly be chased and won over, and needs to act coy, not easy, and "hard-to-get".. That's normal.. in "token" amounts.. but when it's overdone like in this hypothetical case, then we're looking at some major esteem issues.. In which case, just say "That's ok, i'll pass" and just leave.. let someone else deal with that, not you.. In either case, don't be affected (don't go quiet, submissive, shy, puppy-dog, or say sorry; even if you miscalibrated! Remember! She had all the time in the world to prevent this, if she failed to act, then you owe her no apology, she owes you one!)

3. (I Don't Suggest) Then there's Mike.. He is the typical unintentional caveman guy.. the poster child for the image of the clueless guy.. I've actually had the awkward pleasure of watching him miscalibrate.. What would he respond? "Haha! Wow, a big ego there for someone who was just getting a pity-kiss... It just looked like you were thinking about it the whole time, and I felt bad so I said why not, she's nice, but I guess now i'm the one left feeling awkward".. Now, if that answer of his wasn't funny enough, I have to find a good picture of him somewhere.. I think he's in the back row on my HS pj-picture.. big guy, kind of chubby.. to the right I believe.. And the sad part.. he would try again later and end up kissing.. out of sheer ego-recovery on their part..

But generally, not even something you should worry about.. If you honestly afford the two of you the chance to get lost in eachother, and build a genuine connection (i'm not talking games here).. then that calibration on your part is there automatically, and this kissing-issue is not something you should even bother to rationally worry about..

Only-virgins
05-03-08, 03:40 PM
Bitches are such sluts.

And sluts are such bitches.

GrkScorp
05-03-08, 03:57 PM
Okay GrkScorp, I decided I don't have time for this dating bullshit and I just want my mean ex-girlfriend back. Besides altering my cognitive frame so that I in actuality do NOT want her back, or publically dating a bunch of high value sluts, what can I do to get the bitch back?

Bitches are such sluts.

First of all.. that's like saying "homosexuals are gay"

Secondly, depending on how you broke things of, or what the exact situation is with you and your ex.. It would still make more sense, and take less time.. to just go out, and meet other people, who just so happen to be girls..

Altering your frame.. lol.. not going to work with your LTR-ex,

- Listen, honestly.. a part we all have, men and women.. is the ego.. if you know about cognitive frames, you know about the ego.. we all have it.. it's nice, warm and cozy in the front of our head.. the pre-frontal cortex.. It's such a powerful motivator for action that a new science of marketing aims at exploiting it "neuromarketing"

- Now, you can "call" girls "high value b*tches".. but in reality.. all they are, are mostly very nice & sweet girls who are just insecure about their value, and so put up a "mask, face, front, act" to try and overinflate their value to appear higher than anyone else's..

- Take a moment, and shift your understanding of the human brain to a very important region.. the amygdala.. Give it some thought.. what exactly does this mean in terms of competative advantage?

- The ego is a strong motivator, we all want the best for ourselves.. and to get that best, we may feel we have to be difficult.. it's a natural urge, and you'll see why.. but it's also a culturally programmed urge in girls.. against the weapon of choice by other women "oh, she's easy.. she's a slut, she's a wh0re".. so we then get to the urge for guys and girls, to both be "difficult"..

- The female, will be difficult via "resisting", while a male is difficult via "persisting".. They can both be equally as difficult, but what has taken people of 12,000 years ago to today? The amygdala.. and in short, emotions that slowly break down resistance, and allow the female to yield to persisting.. not too long ago, (just 4,000 years ago) the words "love, sex, and rape" ment the same thing.. that's right.. we were still transitioning from primative behavior to civilized behavior, but those primal urges never went away..

- That "high value b*tch".. may have her act up for the rest of the world to see.. but she's not fooling herself, she's not buying into her own crap.. She knows that she's artificially overinflated her value, and her insecurities are constantly eating her up inside.. But this won't stop her from trying to deny that reality.. she'll continue to resist.. and act "high value" via playing it "hard to get" & coy, something that in the 21st century, no longer implies high-value, but again, it's a media-driven ego-device.. And she will hiss at men trying to persist.. But there's a beautiful relationship among all of this.. she enjoys the feeling of being chased, being coy, temporarily enjoying that reality until it's taken away, until her resistance is no match for the man's persisting masculine nature that dominates, makes her feel safe, secure, protected, and allows her to yield and let go.. give in.. to those primal urges.. (but to admit this, is to admit that her "reality" is a fake, which she can't do.. that would blow up her act, both to the rest of the world, and to her)

- So, don't be the least put-off by so-called "high value" women.. because "high value" has little to do with looks, and nothing at all to do with being "b*tchy, snobby, cold, coy, acting hard-to-get".. Most of these girls, after they cut the act, are really sweet, nice, and some are great people.. But by in large, girls who don't put up the "high-value" act (I know this is going to sound cliche') are indeed usually the ones with the highest value, and truly amazing/magnetic people..

Now, if you don't want to bother, and just want your ex-gf back for some personal reason, let's know what the situation is exactly, how things were, how they ended, etc.. and we'll see what we should do..

bohemiandonut
05-03-08, 04:40 PM
Yeah **** bothering. Also I'm not really digging the bar vibe: fake blondes, fake tans, strappy shoes, etc. I like em less flourescent. Also I'm beginning to discover my personal shit-shooting style is a little too Dadaist for most broads.

Well we ended off on pretty lame terms; she broke it off the day I left for winter break. Damn it's been a while. Things weren't perfect between us mainly because
(A) She has been psychologically conditioned to see her character as simply an infallible extension of her baby doll face and
(B) The bizaare, masochistic lovehate we seemed to exchange on a daily basis.

But things weren't horrible really. Oh yeah did I mention I'm her first boyfriend and I - um, - I ****ed her first? So I guess I'm in that role... I'm just not sure of her impression of me at this point. Perhaps this crude paragraph will enlighten me. I suppose I did tell her that "No, I don't 'don't you just want to be friends' ", in fact "I think we should just avoid that whole 'hanging out thing' until we agree that what works best for us is to only speak post-orgasmically." In fact I was probably less pithy at the time but I effectively said the same thing.

But she's come back to me before. She sees me very often as we attend the same university. (Previous sentence was revised to sound more academic.) So she can't forget about me that easy, eh? Eh?

One more thing. I have held up no contact to a score of
Me: -1 (saw her on the street... no message)
Her: -4 ("merry christmas!" "happy new year!" "how was your first day?" "-no message-")

This message will self-destruct along with my GPA.

EDIT: So this is my 13,ooo post. Can I get an Omen!?

misombra
05-03-08, 10:04 PM
Okay GrkScorp, I decided I don't have time for this dating bullshit and I just want my mean ex-girlfriend back. Besides altering my cognitive frame so that I in actuality do NOT want her back, or publically dating a bunch of high value sluts, what can I do to get the bitch back?



you'll have to try to not be such a bitch.

Gigabitch
06-03-08, 12:27 AM
Why is this such a struggle for you, Donut Boy? Is there something wrong with wanting a girlfriend? I don't remember her as being mean. Perhaps you omitted some evidence back then.

GrkScorp
06-03-08, 03:09 AM
Well we ended off on pretty lame terms; she broke it off the day I left for winter break. Damn it's been a while. Things weren't perfect between us mainly because
(A) She has been psychologically conditioned to see her character as simply an infallible extension of her baby doll face and
(B) The bizaare, masochistic lovehate we seemed to exchange on a daily basis.

But she's come back to me before. She sees me very often as we attend the same university. (Previous sentence was revised to sound more academic.) So she can't forget about me that easy, eh? Eh?

One more thing. I have held up no contact to a score of
Me: -1 (saw her on the street... no message)
Her: -4 ("merry christmas!" "happy new year!" "how was your first day?" "-no message-")

With all of that in place.. I think you pumped up ego-princess after you de-virginized her.. and now she's walking around looking for someone more interesting and more of a challenge, because she got the feeling that "ok, he's not going anywhere, he adores me, I can make him do anything for me, boring".. (i'm not saying the feeling was accurate, just that she got that feeling)

Pretty face types, live in that kind of world..

- Disadvantages:

- You're single and not seeing other women, and she knows it (This works in your disfavor, not because you're single.. there's nothing wrong with that.. but for the fact that you're not seeing other women.. and if you want her back.. it makes her feel that "oh.. does he want me because i'm the only one he can get? ugh.. I don't think so.. not me.. I come at too high a price for someone desperate".. but start to be surrounded by HV sluts, and all of a sudden, if you see something in her.. it's because "he found something sOoOoOo special about me, and thinks i'm sOoOoOo special in relation to all those other girls.. ugh.. stupid sluts.." (yeah, I know)
- She broke things off with you
- You want her back more than she wants you back

- Advantages:

- You took away her virginity
- You're not maintaining contact

I think you know what you have to do.. Get surrounded by high-value sluts.. lol.. but i'm quite serious.. And this is why..

Right now, she feels.. I broke things off with him, anytime I want, I can have him back.. boring.. even worse is if you do anything that she can rationalize as "he's chasing me".. (trying to call, text, talk, e-mail, message even though she's not writing back)

So the problem exists in getting her attention (which she'll do a great job in pretending you're failing to get.. don't let the act throw you off).. that's what High Value Sluts are for.. dive in and surround yourself in them.. tell them strait-up.. "I think you're all really nice, but I just want all of you to know, I see you all as friends.. we're just friends.. ok? (they're going to say "ok")".. Let it be known.. or as the bad grammer of a classmate once mentioned:

Be it known that, BD be rollin' with da hottest HV sluts.. when guys need HV sluts, BD is where they turn to.. they're on to him like bees, and he's got the honey.. and any bee that's not onto him yet can see what's going on.. and she'll start flying his way..

Forget that she's your ex, delete that from memory.. gone.. "poof".. clear..., if you see her again.. she's "just a friend".. more likely the case, if you see one of her friends while she'll send to scout you.. express explicitly somewhere in the conversation "I don't know how she feels, but for me.. we're just friends".. either way.. she's going to get the urge to test you to see if you're interested in her or if she still has any control over you.. (if you are, if she does, you fail).. So, be beyond her control.. you have HV sluts, what on earth can she offer you now? You are socially "in-demand", who is she? Why are you still there talking to her? Tell her at that moment.. "look, I just want to tell you something.. and don't take this the wrong way (aka. "take this the wrong way") but me and you, we're just friends.. and I just want to be clear about that, ok?".. now continue to talk to her.. You've just subcomminicated that you have no interest in her, and she has no control over you.. make sure you have some event comming up.. "we're going out this weekend to ____" just let it hang.. it's not an invitation.. it's bait.. later on in the conversation.. try and notice if she tells you how she's doing NOTHING during the weekend, or how she's FREE this weekend.. or even lack of mentioning anything she's doing this weekend and trying to seem busy is enough of a green-light for you to say.. "Why don't you come with us this weekend? Unless you have anything better to do.." I love this sales-close.. It's a conscious mind over-load.. She's already thinking, "WHY don't I go? What are some reasons?" and she could easily pick some BS excuse and throw it your way.. but you've prevented that with "Unless you have anything BETTER to do".. no her parrot suffering from an existential crisis no longer qualifies as an excuse.. as she quickly searches for excuses in her mind, she realizes that none of her excuses really fit the bill.. even the "my aunt, my grandmother, I have a wedding to go to, etc" don't fit the bill.. but the clock is still ticking, split seconds, a second, second(S)! The feeling of awkwardness is creeping in.. she doesn't want to come off as dishonest, as a liar, as deliberately resisting and being coy.. so she agrees.. via.. "No, not really I guess.. lol".. then she may try to get out of it immediately with a "Call me and let me know... i'll think about it.. i'll let you know for sure on ___"... in which case, just smile to let her know that you know exactly what she's thinking, but you're keeping it to yourself to not make her feel like an idiot.. she'll want to recover from that feeling and prove you wrong.. she doesn't want to come off like a liar/hypocrite/dishonest person (not to you, but to HERSELF!, she doesn't want to FEEL that way).. but then you just walk away.. excuse yourself.. and end with "bye"..

- Never call
- Never chase

Until, she's clearly chasing.. You have to understand, when guys chase, it's personally humiliating, it's exhausting, and frustrating.. the more they do it.. the less attracted they get.. it kills attraction.. because guys are practical.. If he has to chase someone for 10 miles, but someone else for 2 miles.. even on the 6th mile, he's going to chase that 2mile girl.. practical.. that's male nature.. Thank you to the people who invented the remote, online-bill-paying, e-filing, etc.. practical..

Not female nature.. get her in the mode of chasing, seriously.. and there's an intoxicating rush she gets.. it's a surge of emotions.. hate towards you, unpredictability, mystery, hope, infatuation, love, lust, etc.. and the more she's taking this joy-ride.. the more attracted she becomes.. That's because, when she's currently chasing, it's impossible for her to rationalize "no, I don't like him".. that makes no sense.. SHE'S CHASING! Therefore, if it's not the case that "no, I don't like him".. she may not want to admit it to herself.. which only adds to the feelings and emotions.. but it's then the case that "yes, I DO like him".. and when you feel that she's started to cope with this reality, and accepted it.. that's when you can start rewarding with kisses and a relationship, and so on and so forth..

bohemiandonut
06-03-08, 02:33 PM
I have a ****ing back browser button right next to my left arrow key so this is the third time I'm writing this. Reader's digest version you know it.

Grk - Yes unfortunately you're right. After our first breakup, no contact worked and she started calling without leaving msgs. I told her to stop. One night she kept calling and I let a girl who was over (a roommate's friend who knew her was in town) answer my phone. Of course my ex immediately hung up and turned off her phone. Although I had the girl leave her a message explaining why she answered, it was clear what had happened. The jealousy and thus attraction barrier had been crossed. She no longer had a "choice." I went over later that night and she literally melted in my arms. It was perfect.

But it didn't last. I gave in too soon, just as attraction was building. I started showing up at her house too much and soon we were back to no contact... Which worked again, we got back together, split up again, and here I am.

Last time I had facebook going for me with all kinds of messages from babes that left her virtually insane with curiosity and jealousy. But I deleted that so now what does she have to go on... seeing me in some bar? I doubt it. I've just been trying to dress real nice whenever I'm out. Will that do it?

Giga - Are you serious? All I do is talk about how mean this girl is... I guess you could just call it self-centered? It's just the sort of imbalance that leaves one feeling used and angry.

FOR EXAMPLE:
I'm in my house, studying during the day so I can't really spend time with here, this is when she lived on my block. From my room I can hear her roommate asking my roommate if he wants to go get sushi. Can you see what's coming? Over the next 15 minutes I wait but get no invitation to dinner. I see my roommate leaving the house and my girlfriend waiting outside with all her roommates. I stand by my porch and look quizically at her. She just looks at me.
Eventually it clicks for her: "...Oh do you want to go get sushi?" - "Were you going to ask me?"
- "Oh I don't know"
- ::look sternly at her:: "Meet in the backyard..." (bitch)"

In the backyard I proceeded to ask her whether she was trying to be a bitch. I told her that she was doing to me what someone does to someone they are TRYING to make feel like shit. Obviously I would see her leave her house ACROSS the street and go to dinner with my roommate. She even said "I don't know maybe I wanted to go to dinner just with (people)" At that point I gave her a middle finger and went inside. Goddamn right she didn't go to dinner and went in her room to cry. Good.

That's merely an example of what to me is either unforgivably thoughtless or just plain mean behavior. She sure is nice when she's on the rag though. The problem is I am in love with EVERYTHING ELSE about her. Does that make sense? She is simply too pretty for me to get over. I just want to see her small face against my chest again, and feel her tiny teeth against my bicep, and kiss her bedtime poppy blossom eyes until



until I'm really in love.

IndiReloaded
07-03-08, 08:48 AM
FOR EXAMPLE:
I'm in my house, studying during the day so I can't really spend time with here, this is when she lived on my block. From my room I can hear her roommate asking my roommate if he wants to go get sushi. Can you see what's coming? Over the next 15 minutes I wait but get no invitation to dinner. I see my roommate leaving the house and my girlfriend waiting outside with all her roommates. I stand by my porch and look quizically at her. She just looks at me.
Eventually it clicks for her: "...Oh do you want to go get sushi?" - "Were you going to ask me?"
- "Oh I don't know"
- ::look sternly at her:: "Meet in the backyard..." (bitch)"

In the backyard I proceeded to ask her whether she was trying to be a bitch. I told her that she was doing to me what someone does to someone they are TRYING to make feel like shit. Obviously I would see her leave her house ACROSS the street and go to dinner with my roommate. She even said "I don't know maybe I wanted to go to dinner just with (people)" At that point I gave her a middle finger and went inside. Goddamn right she didn't go to dinner and went in her room to cry. Good.

That's merely an example of what to me is either unforgivably thoughtless or just plain mean behavior. She sure is nice when she's on the rag though. The problem is I am in love with EVERYTHING ELSE about her. Does that make sense? She is simply too pretty for me to get over. I just want to see her small face against my chest again, and feel her tiny teeth against my bicep, and kiss her bedtime poppy blossom eyes until



until I'm really in love.

BD, if that is the best example you have as to her general bitchyness, I'd have to say YOU have the problem.

You overheard a conversation about dinner & you WAITED for her to invite you? WTF? If you wanted to go, why didn't you just say you overheard about dinner & say you wanted to go. Testing her, were you?

I'm not saying it isn't messed up to ask your roomate to dinner w/o asking you (this is another guy, yes?) but I doubt the context is what you say it was. Were you arguing with her, perchance, before this exchange happened?

If yes, she probably just thought you wanted to be left alone. If no, then ya I'd have to say that was pretty cold on her part.

Never attribute to malice that which is more easily explained by stupidity (or fear).

bohemiandonut
07-03-08, 02:04 PM
Whether it was Malice, Stupidity, OR Fear it's still something that I would never have done to her.

GrkScorp
07-03-08, 02:50 PM
BD,

You're in fcukn' San Diego, California.. home to more beautiful women than any other city in the whole United States..

1. San Diego, CA
2. New York, NY
3. Los Angeles, CA
4. Miami, FL
5. San Antonio, TX

Seriously.. please, rationalize this to me.. becaues I think I may be missing some element(s) of your story..

If all you're attracted to, was her pretty baby-face.. then why can't you just go out and find some other pretty baby-face?

Was there something more about her? Besides her face, and the time you spend with eachother?

bohemiandonut
07-03-08, 03:40 PM
Haha alright fine I give up I guess I'm just lazy.

GrkScorp
08-03-08, 04:02 AM
Haha alright fine I give up I guess I'm just lazy.

A little.. that..., and that you're still comming down from thinking about her as the only woman on the planet.. (one-itis)

It'll mess with your thinking.. so give it some time until you're FULLY over her before you go out and start dating again..

PS. Ugh.. San Diego.. not fair man, not fair.. :(

I absolutely love the whole summer look, with flip flops, tanned skin, the works.. something so warm and sensual about it..

Only-virgins
09-03-08, 07:37 AM
Hanging in the balance. I feel so ****ing weird today. I hate everything and at the same time I love everything. What the hell is that? I don't get it.

GrkScorp, thanks man. For all the help in this thread. For devoting the time to help people here like that with your opinions. Who knew it would be this long?

This girl confuses me, she keeps trying to hit on me when she is next to me but when this other guy leaves she goes chasing after him like a bat out of hell leaving me behind. What the hell.




I absolutely love the whole summer look, with flip flops, tanned skin, the works.. something so warm and sensual about it..

Easy access?

GrkScorp
09-03-08, 09:18 AM
This girl confuses me, she keeps trying to hit on me when she is next to me but when this other guy leaves she goes chasing after him like a bat out of hell leaving me behind. What the hell.

Hmm.. I don't really have enough information to work with, but here are the two most likely cases..., btw, no problem OV, there's no need to say thanks, the only thanks I need is to know that you're having the success you want, with the girls you want;

Best case: (intentional)

- I think we both know, that you're at the point now, where this doesn't really need much detail.. If her action is intentional, then it's largely not genuine, it's fake, it's an act she's putting up.. just to get a reaction from you.. remember, what women look for.. is a reaction.. and not just one.. many.. they just want reaction.. and the most classic way to get it, is through jealousy plot-lines.. hence, (intentional)

Now, I know.. doesn't work.. but they'll never learn.. it's a girly urge that's simply too hard to resist.. but if this is the case, that means good news for you.. If she's taking the time and effort to intentionally create a jealousy plot-line, take a moment and think about what that tells you about her motives.. Why would she do that? That's right.. because she likes you.. and wants to get a reaction out of you..

Other case: (unintentional)

- OV, you're a really great guy, intelligent, you think rationally and logically, which is good for the sciences, but not so useful with girls.. I have a russian and two asian friends who are also in the sciences.. The biggest downfall they take, is "pulling away", or.. "take-aways"

In short.. yes, you demonstrate some quality of yours.. some value that you can add to the interaction.. The mistake all three of them do is that they TRY very hard to demonstrate it.. and directly to the girl they like.. Like giving a cat the ball of string to play with.. that's boring.. the cat won't play with it.. The other mistake they do.. is failing to pull away or take away that value.. They're having a great time.. and then, instead of leaving on the high-note, just when the kitty was playing with the string and having fun.. instead of taking that source of fun away.. on that high-note.. they stay there.. until that fun dims away.. almost completely.. and now the interaction is boring.. and the cat is bored.. and wants to leave..

Keep all that in mind as you watch the following video..

Also make note, that such a basic animal, is so natural at acting disinterested, even when it wants the string badly.. and what effort it makes to get that string when it's teased with it, and it's then taken away..

YouTube - Cat String Theory Demonstrated

What could be happening.. is that when she's around you, more importantly.. around the two of you (you and the other guy).. she's having a great time.. and is in a highly excited emotional state.. (let's just call it HBT for now).. and the first one to "take that away from her".. is the other guy, not you.. When he leaves, he's implicitly taking away that value (of you AND him there, TOGETHER, with her).. HE is then pulling away that dynamic, and breaking it apart.. not you.. so when she's left to emotionally rationalize this through FEELINGS, it feels that things are now less fun when HE is gone.. So when HE leaves, SHE is having less fun..

This type of conditioning, be it intentional or unintentional on the other guy's part.. trains her to chase after him, because she's emotionally rationalized him to be the source of fun, and when he takes that away (himself that is), she can feel herself having less fun..

If indeed unintentional on her part; then:

- When she's in HBT, take-away.. that's right.. just go.. and exit with a subtle but powerful message, "sorry I have to go.. sorry I can't stay longer.. blah blah.. BYE".. it's as if you're subcommunicating that she's at some loss, and you're saying sorry for creating that loss.. and at the same time, you're saying BYE, which people are conditioned to get the feeling of a permanent goodbye, rather than a temporary one..

In effect, you're conditioning her to feel that YOU are the source of fun and this HBT-feeling that she loves being in.. she won't only be more responsive to you during an interaction, but you're actually conditioning her to chase the source of that HBT-emotional state (you).. and feel that state and feeling go away as you go away..

I know, this makes no sense from the standpoint of a guy.. believe me.. I know.. but try and remember that guys and girls are different.. here is one such difference.. for dogs, that go under the honor system.. this is rude, and dishonerable.. but for cats.. it's emotionally stimulating and fun..

When girls chase, and the more they chase, the more emotionally invested and connected they feel.. which is why they try and resist chasing as much as they can.. but that's the object of the game.. to get them to chase.. because notice in how deep of a trance this girl you're talking about is, when this guy gets up and walks away.. She's not thinking.. not with logic anyway.. her emotions and feelings are dictating her actions.. there is no logic, not with chasing.. and the more she chases, the more attracted and emotional she feels towards the person she's chasing.. also, the more invested she feels, because she's spent time, effort, and energy (sometimes money too) in chasing this guy..

Look around the forum.. to all the girls posting "there's this guy I like.. blah blah.. but he's not doing/saying this back.. and i've tried to do/say ____.. and yesterday/last week I did this.. and I keep trying, do you think he likes me?".. It's a very enjoyable ride.. the thrill of all those emotions, fear of loss, hope, excitement, validation, doubt, uncertainty, unpredictability, etc.. For a girl, this is like crack mixed with viagra and spanish fly.. once you're on this ride, it's very hard to get off..

So, it's definitely something to make note of OV, and try and condition girls from now on to responding to YOU as the source of that highly aroused/intoxicated/excited emotional state.. and it's definitely not too late to do that with this girl.. just start taking away and pulling away (naturally and as unintentionally as possible) before the other guy does.. and just keep being your regular, fun, normal, self..

Best,

GrkScorp

Mish
09-03-08, 07:21 PM
I know, this makes no sense from the standpoint of a guy.. believe me.. I know.. but try and remember that guys and girls are different.. here is one such difference.. for dogs, that go under the honor system.. this is rude, and dishonerable.. but for cats.. it's emotionally stimulating and fun..


Interesting analogy Scorp

Passingly I've noticed this as well. Some women have canine resembling personalities (loyalty, trust, principals) and some feline (fun, loving, stimulation seeking, changing with the wind).

I think realization I'm slowly coming to is that I'm a canine person.

misombra
09-03-08, 10:19 PM
so, you like bitches?

lol jk.

GrkScorp
10-03-08, 03:41 AM
so, you like bitches?

I love b*tches.. it's just that very few women know what it means to be a b*tch, or how to be a b*tch, and GENUINELY come off that way, not like it's some put-on act..

(please, ladies, this is just personal preferences, not all guys like b*tches, don't run off being a b*tch.. a lot of guys also like honest, loyal, down-to-earth, non-catty, nice, sweet, non-catty girls.. and i'm also one of those guys, I just prefer b*tchy, wild, untamed, over composed, quiet, nice)

Mish
10-03-08, 05:31 AM
Feline qualities = One Night Stand

Canine qualities = Relationship

GrkScorp
10-03-08, 07:01 AM
Feline qualities = One Night Stand

Canine qualities = Relationship

LOL..

That borders a little towards misogyny..

The issue of one-night-stands, isn't something that's exclusive to one or the other.. both cats and dogs would love to endulge in one-night-stands

It's just that dogs follow the honor system.. there's a set of rules, and it's understood that these rules are to be honored and followed, and there's never a justified departure from these rules; to depart from these fair, just, and agreed upon rules is to be unfair, dirty, cheap, dishonorable; and hence, deserving of hate, anger, punishment, judgement, justice to restore the balance of what's fair and honorable

It's the way of the warrior, of organized debate, of formal arguments, and every other aspect of life, including dating and relationships

That's why.. even guys will find it dirty, cheap, dishonorable when they hear of other guys "manipulating, lying" to a girl about promises of love & exclusive-relationship-status in order to obtain sex via a one-night-stand.. because it's a violation of the rules, of what is fair, of what's honorable..

But that's also why guys will find the issue of "who pays" filled with much room for debate, because it seems to violate and trample over what is just, fair, and honorable.. It's as if it implies that the guy has no value, and the girl has so much value to offer, that he has pay for her to be there, constantly, day after day, date after date, and that this is the expectation.. when in reality, it's usually him that's giving up some better alternative to be there, it's usually him that's more fun, interesting, and emotionally stimulating, so it's not logical or balanced that he has to "pay" to maintain this interaction; and on top of that, continue to pay, and be expected to continue to pay to maintain the interaction, without the girl ever offering (genuinely, not fake-reach offering) to pay equally, a system only the Dutch take part in..

And, ok, under the honor system, there's room for understanding.. and mutual agreement to achieve an overall balance.. So, ok.. this is why guys cope and overlook the "paying" issue.. because they understand that for the other person, they need to feel the sense of feeling special and the only woman in the world, and so valuable and worthy of him paying for her.. like she's worth it.. and in the overall picture of things, there's the expectation that on her end, she'll balance this out (but as you guys know by now, when you're the only one playing by the honor system, you're the only one bleeding ego, time, effort, and money, and the only one not getting anything.. but at least you feel like a gentleman and a good nice boy)

This is why, under the honor system.. if the guy has to approach, walk through the social pressure and the room, break the ice, start and open up the conversation.. then it's almost a given, it's the norm, it's the expectation, that in order to balance, the girl must offer and give her number without being asked, because there's already been too much of an ego-risk taken by your part, and at this point, there's not even an ego-risk anywhere near that which you took on her part, so the least she can do is balance under the honor system, (which, very few women do, because they don't play under the honor system)

Under the cat system, you start to feel a massive departure from the honor system.. You can think of the honor system like the code of the Samurai, and the cat system like the code of the rogue Ninja, where there are no rules.. anything goes, and you get terms like "it doesn't count".. There are no reservations felt about bending the rules, because the only rules that exist are those of "self-interest, personal fun, and survival".. The ninja will do what it has to, to survive or have as much fun and pleasure for itself as possible, backstab you, throw blinding powder in your face, use poisons, deception, misdirection, lies, tricks, cheap-shots, and anything else that the Samurai would consider dishonorable, because in the world of the Ninja and cats, there's no such thing as honor, just self-interest..

You can see, how the Ninja would have such a powerful advantage over the Samurai; fighting dishonorably, while the Samurai stuck strong to the honor system.. In the feudal world, the Samurai would be killed, losing his life.. in the dating world, the guy would lose his ego, time, effort, money, heart, feelings, emotions, dignity, esteem, sense of self-worth/value, etc..

But that's until someone realized how to strike a fair and honorable advantage over the Ninja and cats alike.. their weakness, their code, the driving force behind their actions.. the only motives they have.. their feelings and emotions.. their "self-interest".. Some ninjas wanted "value", others wanted a sense of "trust, protection, security, feeling safe, comfort".. while others wanted "emotional stimulation, connection, chemistry, powerful attraction".. All of these played on the cat's self-interest, and when teased with what they were interested in.. they put in effort to get it.. to chase it.. and when feeling fear of loss of that, and a sense of jealousy as if someone else would have it.. they fell into a mode of chasing after the object of their self-interest.. In terms of Samuari and Ninjas in the dating world, this realization of the cat-system, leveled the playing field.. Some guys (former samurai) turned to the dark-side and were consumed by this realization, using this new power and advantage to completely manipulate, and attain their own self-interest with total disreguard for what was honorable.. But guys who understood the cat-system, only used it to level the playing-field.. to bring them towards the honor system, and play fair.. to attain a balance, a just and fair one..

When they did this, they realized, among other things, that Ninjas were not all that.. really.. guys were more fun, more interesting, more funny, usually more successful and financially healthy, less b*tchy, less needy, less issues and problems, and the list went on.. the guys started to quickly feel that, the only thing these cats had to offer, was sex.. And so, some went through a phase where all they looked for was just that.. and so one-night-stands became the only goal.. to have as many of them as one could.. for others.. Sex was overlooked.. denied, they refused to accept that this was the only thing that could be offered.. and embarked on a journey to find something more.. And slowly, they found it.. what they were overlooking all along.. real, genuine, deep, powerful, emotional connection.. synergy.. a feeling that two people were working as one super-human being, combining their energy to form this ultimate force that could conquer and withstand all.. perfect compliments..

So, in the field, you're a Samurai, who knows how to deal with ninjas.. who knows all their tricks.. and how to avoid them, evade them, deflect them, and reflect them back if you have to.. You know how to take away their advantage, and play on your advantage over them.. their nature, "self-interest".. and as you do just that.. as they chase.. you allow for the chance for a genuine and real connection to grow between the two of you.. so much so, that between the two of you, you're BOTH under the honor system.. but to everyone else, to the rest of the world, you're both under the cat-system, looking out for your own self-interest, because you're now one.. Where there's a fluid exchange of affection, sex, love, passion, emotions, support, etc.. between the two of you.. but towards the rest of the world, there's only self interest, to benefit you alone, as a couple or family unit..

okapa
10-03-08, 07:09 AM
Wow, still alive lol.

Mish
10-03-08, 07:57 AM
LOL..

That borders a little towards misogyny..

Qe?



When they did this, they realized, among other things, that Ninjas were not all that.. really.. guys were more fun, more interesting, more funny, usually more successful and financially healthy, less b*tchy, less needy, less issues and problems, and the list went on.. the guys started to quickly feel that, the only thing these cats had to offer, was sex.. And so, some went through a phase where all they looked for was just that.. and so one-night-stands became the only goal.. to have as many of them as one could.. for others.. Sex was overlooked.. denied, they refused to accept that this was the only thing that could be offered.. and embarked on a journey to find something more.. And slowly, they found it.. what they were overlooking all along.. real, genuine, deep, powerful, emotional connection.. synergy.. a feeling that two people were working as one super-human being, combining their energy to form this ultimate force that could conquer and withstand all.. perfect compliments..

So, in the field, you're a Samurai, who knows how to deal with ninjas.. who knows all their tricks.. and how to avoid them, evade them, deflect them, and reflect them back if you have to.. You know how to take away their advantage, and play on your advantage over them.. their nature, "self-interest".. and as you do just that.. as they chase.. you allow for the chance for a genuine and real connection to grow between the two of you.. so much so, that between the two of you, you're BOTH under the honor system.. but to everyone else, to the rest of the world, you're both under the cat-system, looking out for your own self-interest, because you're now one.. Where there's a fluid exchange of affection, sex, love, passion, emotions, support, etc.. between the two of you.. but towards the rest of the world, there's only self interest, to benefit you alone, as a couple or family unit..

That's another interesting analogy Scorp, Samurai vs Ninja, very creative :)

So, to bring this into a more physical world (instead of abtract) to give a sense of what I mean when I refer to canine vs feline personality traits, I will give a few examples:

Canine: Women who are generous, loyal, trustworthy. They dedicate themselves in help of others. Their idea of fun is when everyone has a good time, when everyone benefits. They communicate interdependence and synergy they look out for everyones interest. Those eyes when they look at you they speak of instant trust, you have no reason to doubt, question or judge them. These women ussually avoid clubs and other places of instant gratification and stimulation. Instead they dedicate themselves to a cause.

Feline: Women who are emotional, stimulation seeking, sensual and fun loving, but also looking out for self interest over the interests of others. Their idea of fun is when they have a good time, and their good time rubs off on select others. They seek value greater than theirs but only to absorb it and move on to the next point of stimulation. When you look into those eyes you see that you need to maitain their interest, their affection is very conditional. These women can be found all over clubs, pubs, parties and other places with high stimulation potential.

So given opportunity to play with a cat would I take it? Of course. I will play around with a piece of string just to watch the excitement and the enthusiasm that such an activity generates (until I get bored with it). Would I want to be with someone who is distracted and stimulated so easily and whose degree of trust is so questionable and conditional? I don't think so. For long term relationship I will be looking for someone whose value is long lasting and is built on solid principals which I find trustworthy.

That's pretty much what I meant by those two simple lines of text :)

GrkScorp
10-03-08, 06:17 PM
That's pretty much what I meant by those two simple lines of text :)

Oh Mish,

Yes, you have a very canine quality, and that's good, because most guys aren't looking after a relationship, most guys don't really know what they're looking for.. some guys are just looking for a number, others to kiss, others to just talk to someone, others for sex, others for a date later on in time, etc..

So in that aspect, these guys have their self-interest in mind, they're looking (from a guy's POV) for a one-night-stand, pump-&-dump type of deal..

As for the analogy, it's nothing new, i've been saying this for years.. and when i'm with a woman.. I like to think of it like me being the Samurai, taking on the heavy burdens that fly our way with sheer power and strength, aggressive and direct force.. while my little cleaver ninja handles all these subtleties with indirect force.. as a couple, you (as one entity) act in total self-interest for yourselves.. but within that entity, the two of you follow the honor system, (besides the fact that she's a cat).. there's been a mutual conversion of sorts.. now, if there's no honor system within the relationship, between those two people.. then fcuk it.. the relationship is basically a relationsh*t.. it's over..

IndiReloaded
11-03-08, 12:42 AM
LOL.

You guys are using too many words to explain a basically simple idea. Just make a chi square for the interactions. Then Grk can fill in the boxes for what to expect:


FEMALE:
Feline personality OR Canine personality
MALE:
Tomcat personality OR Alpha/pack leader personality

Possible combinations:

#1 Tom w/feline #2 Tom w/canine

#3 Alpha w/feline #4 Alpha/canine


And there you have it. Except for some minor crossover, all of human dating interactions explained in a simple plot.

Now all you need to do is learn to identify which type you are, which type your partner is & what to expect in each case. This would make a cute little book, actually.

And Grk, the reason you prefer feline/bitches is b/c you wouldn't have anyone to apply your pop-psych to otherwise. :D

Gigabitch
11-03-08, 03:17 AM
...From my room I can hear her roommate asking my roommate if he wants to go get sushi. Can you see what's coming? Over the next 15 minutes I wait but get no invitation to dinner...

Oh, for ****'s sake. I thought you were the boy in that relationship. You're just too damned sensitive for your own good. SHe's probably never in her life met a guy who actually HAD feelings before, let alone been held responsible for them.

Look, bodo, when you get a virgin you have certain responsibilities. Some of them involve being sexually responsible about contraception and stuff like that, but other responsibilities include teaching them some of the basics of relationship dynamics. It sounds to me like you were expecting her to act like a pro when she's really just an amateur.

You spent a huge amount of time and energy being pissed off at her all the time. Why? It's like being angry with a baby for having bad table manners. Jeeze.

GrkScorp
11-03-08, 03:25 AM
And Grk, the reason you prefer feline/bitches is b/c you wouldn't have anyone to apply your pop-psych to otherwise. :D

I really did like the rest of the post, although I don't like to think of things so clear-cut and almost digital.. When you're with people.. everyone is like a gradient, a transition, things are more smooth and continuous.. And this is going to perhaps be the nerdiest thing i'll ever say, but if you want to explain a social interaction from beginning to end, take calculus and linear algebra, seriously..

I believe back in Calc I was where you just learn about derivatives and very basic intergration.. I might be wrong, it's been a while.. But you can think of the importance of derivatives to track down the position of the interaction, then gauge and assess the speed of the interaction, and go a little beyond that, (that second step is important) and try and match its acceleration.. Think of it like NASA, trying to land a shuttle onto a space station.. it's not enough to match the position and speed, but the actual acceleration must match aswell..

For most guys, the position alone is usually some unknown variable.. lol.. but for women, they're usually aware of all three, and at the very least, just the first two..

For instant rapport, just come into a group and match all three.. and then after you have a firm sense of comfort, trust, and safety in place.. you increase the acceleration (not position), which in turn will work to increase the speed, which in turn will increase or move the position of the interaction to a different phase.. And as you do this.. there's a new level of comfort and trust established at this new position, speed, and acceleration.., which you know what that means! Time to yet again increase the acceleration and start the cycle all over again.. until you get to the position you want to be in (no pun intended, seriously)

You can analyze this to no end.. social interactions are beautiful.. there's almost an art and science to them.. and more than the outcome, I just get so caught up in the process, but it's all stuff that's going on behind the scenes..

But the chi-square model you suggest is workable, because for the sake of keeping things simple, it works..

Now, the reason I love b*tches, is for no other reason than for the fact that I like to tame them, and do guys a favor in doing so.. It drives me wild inside to see a woman with her life so fcuked-up and out of control, and all over the place, and constantly flaking on others, and herself! etc.. And I just have this strong urge to just jump in, make her mine for a while, and get her life together, then send her on her way, back out into the world.. It's the trill of fixing them.. And I know you're probably going to hit me back with.. (there's no fixing a b*tch).. but, yes..., there is.. and i'm very happy I do, not just for other guys, but for HER.. I like to see her life go back into place, and be more stable and secure.. I like to see her more grounded with the rest of the world.. I like to see her stop thinking with emotions, and start thinking with some logic.. and you'd be shocked, that most of these girls who are b*tches, are actually very beautiful people.. sure, they have some random mood-swings.. but aside from that, they're usually smarter than they look, deeper than they look, and have hidden aspects to their character/personality which they don't even know about yet because they've convinced themselves that "looks" is all they have going for them, and they've been surrounded by idiot guys who have done nothing more but to add to that thinking and reaffirm it constantly instead of showing her otherwise..

Don't get me wrong, i'm not the guy who goes after b*tchy women.. if one happens to come my way, then it's simply her lucky day.. But i'm more attracted to Eva Green types.. women who are mature, grounded, have a strong feminine side, but at the same time, are in contact with their masculine side, it's a whole mix of things.. but she's my standard in women, and I have a bad habit of molding b*tchy women towards that.. something I know will stop one day when I get tired of putting in the effort to mold them, and just give up on b*tchy women alltogether.. and look for that natural, raw, woman..

IndiReloaded
11-03-08, 06:33 AM
LOL.

Ppl as particles. There's actually a growing interest in a field called 'social physics', fyi. Perhaps you should apply to the program.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/18278

Mish
11-03-08, 07:11 AM
Now, the reason I love b*tches, is for no other reason than for the fact that I like to tame them, and do guys a favor in doing so.. It drives me wild inside to see a woman with her life so fcuked-up and out of control, and all over the place, and constantly flaking on others, and herself! etc.. And I just have this strong urge to just jump in, make her mine for a while, and get her life together, then send her on her way, back out into the world.. It's the trill of fixing them...

I don't know Scorp, you're not a psychiatrist. You have to becareful not to imagine that you do more for these women than you actually do.

Though, every bit of help helps I guess.

Gigabitch
11-03-08, 07:19 AM
And I know you're probably going to hit me back with.. (there's no fixing a b*tch)....

No, honey, there isn't. The "bitch" you've described is just a damaged female. I'm thinking it's possible you've never met a real bitch. They're actually pretty rare. I think if you'd been in close contact with a deep-down bitch, you'd be a lot more bitter than you are.

Mish
11-03-08, 07:24 AM
My "biting retard ex", Giga I told you about was such I think. I think she was BPD. You can't change them, they change you.

You can imagine how much fun her and I had :D

Gigabitch
11-03-08, 07:28 AM
I think you left a part of yourself with her.

IndiReloaded
11-03-08, 09:06 AM
I think she was BPD. You can't change them, they change you.

That made me sad for you, Mish, even tho I know you're an optimist. :(

I'll have to buy you a beer when I'm in Sydney to cheer you up.

Mish
11-03-08, 09:23 AM
That made me sad for you, Mish, even tho I know you're an optimist. :(

I'll have to buy you a beer when I'm in Sydney to cheer you up.

Thanks Indi, it's a date ;)

I will bring her photo so we can throw darts at it in the local pub :)

misombra
11-03-08, 09:26 AM
I think you left a part of yourself with her.

aaaaahahaaahaaa. i get it.

that's funny lol.

Mish
11-03-08, 09:30 AM
I think you left a part of yourself with her.

Actually I did. Many parts, she was covered in them :)

GrkScorp
11-03-08, 01:54 PM
No, honey, there isn't. The "bitch" you've described is just a damaged female. I'm thinking it's possible you've never met a real bitch. They're actually pretty rare. I think if you'd been in close contact with a deep-down bitch, you'd be a lot more bitter than you are.

A b*tch, is a damaged female.. that's all there is.. the rest is just face-value

The urge to play on male insecurities and put down guys and seek their attention and validation only to blow them off, the urge to just use guys because they're bored and because they can to do stuff for them or to get them things, the urge to create social drama because they're bored and want to feel involved and special now that they're not the center of attention, the urge to fake pregnancy or abuse guys in any other way, etc.. that's all face-value.. :astonish:

Behind that urge, there's a reason.. and that reason is that exact damaged nature.. although, not always damaged, it's also sometimes just undiscovered, you get a lot of girls who've just given up hope and faith in their own selves!

And, what's more sad than that, is that many of them develop a strong hate towards men, and even towards other women.. and it's because nobody can communicate to them.. nobody can get in touch with them.. but the whole "b*tch" thing, in my eyes, is just a cry out for help..

But all it takes, is just a strong desire to help them, the right way.. to understand them and connect with them, to feel how they're feeling, and to let them discover themselves, genuinely, through your eyes.. It's takes a little bit of effort, because in the beginning, they're in man-hate mode, manipulate-mold-toy-with-him mode, or pick on his insecurities for fun because i'm bored mode.. That's fine, all it takes to get past that is to be able to tolerate it.. and to tolerate it the right way, pure-resistance, and letting her know that this sh*t isn't working, letting her know that she doesn't have that control over you, but you're still there, because you care, not because of her guilt/drama/b*tch games, not because of the sex, and not because you owe it to her or feel sorry for her in any way.. but because you feel for her, understand her, connect with her, and want to help her.. you see that side of her to which she herself isn't aware of yet, and you're not stopping until she sees that side of her..

Be it the wife in her mid-30's who's married to a urologist that tells her he's sleeping with other women, and who feels unable and unworthy of pleasing him or making him happy, not valuable in life what-so-ever because she's not doing anything productive, and just wants other men to get revenge on her husband in her mind.. Be it the single-child sheltered-princess who's addicted to attention like crack, who still wants to push the limits of how far her looks can take her, test to see to what extremes she can get guys to jump hoops for her, try and see how far she can push people just because she can and because she's bored and it's fun.. or be it the girl who's been constantly abused by guys for far too long and is now just plain vengeful that nobody has ever appreciated her or validated her for who she really is and given her a sense of self-worth; but has to constantly take orders in a subserviant work position, being under-respected, and under-paid, tired of being everyone else's push-over, and wanting to let the rest of the world know and feel her pain..

Damaged? Maybe.. but more the case that men have come in and out of their life, who just didn't bother to at least try and fix the cracks, who really could care less about them as a person, as an individual, and mistook their face-value crap as "her b*tch drama emotional PMS outbreaks"..

When you give these women, these seemingly hard-core b*tches, creatures from the depths of hell itself; the time and effort they need.. they DO change, for the better.. and the change isn't something temporary either, because it's the change they want for themselves, but nobody is helping them realize that change, and they're just going about it the wrong way.. And when they do realize exactly who they are, that person & qualities of their genuine character and personality which they've been either supressing or has been left undiscovered for all this time, they love it.. you've just litterally changed their life.. for the better.. and they realize it, on their own.. :)

Now, i'm talking about emotionally stable b*tches who have the potential to change for the better.. emotionally unstable b*tches who will never change, are just not attractive.. let some poor b@stard deal with that, until she gets diagnosed with bi-polar or something and get's locked up somewhere.. :horror:

Now, it's risky business.. You definitely don't want to end up with someone who will lie about being on the pill and then have sex, or sabotage your condoms while you're sleeping and then have sex, or bring her personal drama into your work or other relationships, or destroy your stuff, or try to create legal/financial complications as a means of punishing you, etc.. You can tolerate some things, but there comes a point where someone crosses the line.. and I think thie is just the start of such a point.. :french:

GrkScorp
11-03-08, 01:59 PM
My "biting retard ex", Giga I told you about was such I think. I think she was BPD. You can't change them, they change you.

You can imagine how much fun her and I had :D

Wow, my uncle is just going through with a motion for divorce.. his wife has BPD.. one second she's breaking sh*t and doesn't want the kids to go to school and is calling the police telling them stories of him hitting her (not true).. the next, she's trying to hug him, kiss him, work things out..

Yeah.. BPD, is pretty much loss of sanity.. there's no talking to my now-soon-to-be former aunt.. you can feel the lack of communication and understanding on her part.. like she's in her own world..

Sorry you had to go through that Mish; really.. I can't begin to imagine what something like that would be like..

GrkScorp
11-03-08, 02:06 PM
LOL.

Ppl as particles. There's actually a growing interest in a field called 'social physics', fyi. Perhaps you should apply to the program.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/18278

You know, if I was actually THAT serious about this, but i'm not, so i'm not even going to bother finishing that thought..

Yeah, I guess you could come up with elaborate economic and mathematical models; or as these people do, physics models to explain an interactions.. I mean, I had a phase where I wanted to predict reactions of people through the use of Game Theory.. but it's just not worth it, even if you develop a model to fully capture exactly how things work, it's just more practical and meaningful to see it and experience it for yourself out there with people rather than with functions on paper..

You can use some concepts though to make basic analogies.. but that should be the limit to which you use them..

I think it's very interesting, thanks again Indi for yet an other interesting link.. but I think i'd rather stick to Tax.. ;)

Illusional
24-03-08, 03:48 AM
well 6 pages later and about 235 posts past the start.. i finally enter. but hell no, i'm not about to read all 200+ posts.

raverboy