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anachronistic
23-02-08, 07:03 PM
So do you think that one's consciousness lies on a dimension other than the dimensions we sense in the physical world? What separates, and what gives the ability to be conscious? Do you think that a mind is a complex form of energy? Do you think that one's consciousness comes into existence through the evolution of energy, caused by a desire? Where does this desire come from? Why does consciousness relate to the physical world?

That's my level of thinking. I would like to further examine these ideas until I have a better understanding of such things. If you can contribute, I would appreciate!

okapa
24-02-08, 01:09 AM
I'm for determinism so as I understand it, it's just electric transmitions in your brain...

vashti
24-02-08, 01:33 AM
The reticular activating system regulates consciousness.

boobaa
24-02-08, 03:46 AM
There is no body, there is only consciousness. Therefore it can't be explained through the imaginary, physical world.

DoesntMatter
24-02-08, 07:42 AM
Actually boobaa, there is a body, and your consciousness is part of that body

anachronistic
24-02-08, 08:56 AM
Ooooo, controversial. :)

So Boobaa argues that in this physical world, the consciousness is given a physical form to explain to he who is conscious.

Vashti suggests that it is completely physical, created by physical phenomena inside the physical brain, thus making it all very physical.

Which one is right? And why?

Well, I think that consciousness perhaps exists somewhere else, and is connected to this physical world through the physical workings of the brain...

The problem is that consciousness itself does not take up a physical form... right?

Junket
24-02-08, 11:47 AM
I know that you'll never find an answer to these questions.

anachronistic
24-02-08, 01:59 PM
I know that you'll never find an answer to these questions.

My motto is never say never.

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:02 PM
Have you been listening to Ajahn Brahms' podcasts, lol?

anachronistic
24-02-08, 02:06 PM
Have you been listening to Ajahn Brahms' podcasts, lol?

No. Am I reinventing the wheel with these questions? I am almost sure I am. Is it worth checking out?

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:13 PM
No. Am I reinventing the wheel with these questions? I am almost sure I am. Is it worth checking out?

Moment. Have to find it...

Here, just don't take it too seriously. Its religion afterall, tho the ideas are brain stretching for a lark. After a while his talks all start sounding the same (FYI, I've met him, actually; nice fellow ex-physicist as he likes to tell everyone).

May help you to sleep even. ;)

http://www.bswa.org/audio/mp3/Brahmavamso_2004_02_06.mp3

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:25 PM
Well, I think that consciousness perhaps exists somewhere else, and is connected to this physical world through the physical workings of the brain...

There are theories that our universe is just one of many, connected like 'bubbles' that touch one another. Multiverse theory.

Personally I like the Jukebox theory (i.e. put another dime in the jukebox, baby...) ;)

Only-virgins
24-02-08, 02:31 PM
The conscious mind is the product of different systems of the brain working. Like what you see on your monitor. You only get a computer when you have a hard drive, memory RAM(short term) and HD mem(long term). All the things working together in our brain make us have the ability to have a conscious mind. We have to gain memories and thoughts over time in order to actually form one and have a personality. Another dimension? Sounds like more of the "I am human and I want to REALLY believe that we are special" BS. Where was your conscious mind when you were 1 year old...no one remembers that....that is because the hard drive was empty = no conscious mind.

Do the MP3s on the hard drive physically exist? the data itself maybe part of the hard-drive.....the data does not exist...only the hard drive does. The hard drive stops working as the system it was trying to maintain...the data is lost....Just like our conscious mind when the brain stops working.

NEVER even knew this was a debate....neurologists already figured this out long time ago. I can prove that it is the byproduct of the brain...give me a baseball bat and turn around. They have touched parts of the brain and the reactions of the conscious mind are consistent. You touch the memory area and SURPRISE loss of memory.



Well, I think that consciousness perhaps exists somewhere else, and is connected to this physical world through the physical workings of the brain...

Why can't the physical workings of the brain be enough? Is it because you can't comprehend the fact that our brain is complex enough to create something like the conscious mind you must create alternate universes and dimensions? Just interesting because you have the right answer in there" the physical workings of the brain"...just the rest is not necessary.



There is no body, there is only consciousness. Therefore it can't be explained through the imaginary, physical world.

On the contrary. There is no conscious, there in only the body. The conscious mind is a by-product of the brain. When you die, your bodies decomposes but never the less still exists in one form or another...your brain dies and your conscious mind never existed in the first place.

IndiReloaded
24-02-08, 02:41 PM
OV, have you started reading Heinlein yet? You should read 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'. Its not the main plot of the book, but there is a computer who becomes conscious in it. A good story.

Only-virgins
24-02-08, 02:59 PM
OV, have you started reading Heinlein yet? You should read 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'. Its not the main plot of the book, but there is a computer who becomes conscious in it. A good story.

Never read it but will take it as a recommendation now. Will look for it next time I am at a book store. I'll look it up online.

anachronistic
24-02-08, 04:07 PM
Moment. Have to find it...

Here, just don't take it too seriously. Its religion afterall, tho the ideas are brain stretching for a lark. After a while his talks all start sounding the same (FYI, I've met him, actually; nice fellow ex-physicist as he likes to tell everyone).

May help you to sleep even. ;)

http://www.bswa.org/audio/mp3/Brahmavamso_2004_02_06.mp3

That was both interesting and boring at the same time! Equilibrium...

When he talks about understanding and trusting teachers and learning to trust oneself... I think that is somewhat ignorant. Brought up some interesting points, didn't really answer any of my questions, lol.


"I am human and I want to REALLY believe that we are special" BS. Where was your conscious mind when you were 1 year old...no one remembers that....that is because the hard drive was empty = no conscious mind.

I am not concerned with the importance of myself, or humanity. I am curious about consciousness. "Where was your conscious mind when you were one year old?" That is a very good question. Well, the only conclusion that seems acceptable as an answer, is because when you are born, you have to learn your instincts. If you are born again, how do you know the world is the same? How do you know that it is this world? When you die, your conscious is lost; you become unconscious. Right? How do you know that it disappears completely? How do you know that consciousness itself is physical? Only something physical can be lost in this physical world. How do you know that the consciousness detaches from your brain, and goes somewhere else?


NEVER even knew this was a debate....neurologists already figured this out long time ago. I can prove that it is the byproduct of the brain...give me a baseball bat and turn around.

Well, I am not here to debate it. I am here to understand the topic more. Furthermore, I didn't know that such a complex subject had been solved already. And when you render someone unconscious with a baseball bat, is the conscience really gone? No, when they wake up, after 3 or 4 or however many days, and they are informed of what happened.


Why can't the physical workings of the brain be enough? Is it because you can't comprehend the fact that our brain is complex enough to create something like the conscious mind you must create alternate universes and dimensions? Just interesting because you have the right answer in there" the physical workings of the brain"...just the rest is not necessary.

Because it does not make sense to me. I haven't dismissed the possibility that the brain generates consciousness, but it is more understandable for me, the other way. Sometimes, when you want to understand something, you have to step outside the boundaries of 'what is necessary'.


On the contrary. There is no conscious, there in only the body. The conscious mind is a by-product of the brain. When you die, your bodies decomposes but never the less still exists in one form or another...your brain dies and your conscious mind never existed in the first place.

How do you know it's not the other way around?

boobaa
24-02-08, 09:37 PM
To find out the truth, you have to abandon your beliefs. But then again, truth is very subjective and in the end it still comes down how we see things.
Thats the very reason why we have 5 different working theories about atoms and energy, different religions, and just the simple belief that bus will take us to school in the morning and not to some place else...

We believe what is easier to believe, what we are used to see around us. Therefore we can never truly believe something that exists outside of our world.

Even if consciousness is somewhere outside and reality is just the product of consciousness, we still live in this very world, be it imaginary if you will. And we must accept this, this is something we have proof for. We live in this world.

Ofcourse there are other dimensions, there always is, thats what quantrum physics is all about, but that is just beyond and unbearable.

I suggest watching NOVA: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

It may spark some ideas how complex and diverse it all really is.



And if we take as this, that conciousness exists outside from this world, but is bound with certain chemicals what we call our body, then why exactly is it so? Why doesn't stone have conciousness, or has it?

vashti
24-02-08, 09:56 PM
Why doesn't stone have conciousness?

Because it lacks a brain.

misombra
24-02-08, 11:01 PM
i don't know.

i don't really care either.

although i have been contemplating, quite a bit, the collective conscious of birds.

IndiReloaded
25-02-08, 02:25 AM
Why the hell is there an ad for a Neuro Programmer (that mentions NLP, arrrgh!) at the bottom of this thread?

The darn thing looks like a tin foil helmet that crazy ppl wear...

If you can't see the ad, let me know b/c I 'grabbed' it.

LoveAdmin, are you having a little joke at our expense? ;)

Gribble
25-02-08, 02:53 AM
An algorithm checks everything that's being discussed in a particular thread, then searches of an ad that corresponds in some way.

Kiechi
25-02-08, 03:34 AM
http://www.loveforum.net/images/mar6.gif

Junket
25-02-08, 05:39 AM
I'm just sayin', I spent my high school years, thinkin' about that shit.

It's just mental masturbation.

Tiay
25-02-08, 06:31 AM
I concur with OV.

We humans seem to like to think that we're so f*cking special, and we need souls or spirits of consciousnesses or whatever else connected to us floating around on some other universe or plane or world or ethereal space to explain how we've come to be so very special.

why is it not enough to accept that nature is bloody complicated? I think it's because lay people have no idea how things really work. How does your body really work? How does DNA work? who "reads" DNA? how does one's metabolism really work? Whenever we're told about it, it all seems kind of science-fictioney. So there may as well be a portal to another world in our brains.

'wing, you claim that it's not about the importance of humanity, but it IS. You didn't just go eenie minie miney mo, I'll choose to speculate about the human consciousness existing on another plane, rather, than, say, speculate about whether mice are really super intelligent pan-dimensional beings who've come to study us - that's obviously why they're in all the labs. Free cookie for anyone who gets the reference.

http://www.gift-baskets-4u.com/images/Cookies/Milk%20Chocolate%20Chip%20Cookie.jpg

They are both silly unfalsifiable theories for which there is no support. They are, in my mind, equally silly and pointless to argue about.

anachronistic
25-02-08, 07:17 AM
I concur with OV.

We humans seem to like to think that we're so f*cking special, and we need souls or spirits of consciousnesses or whatever else connected to us floating around on some other universe or plane or world or ethereal space to explain how we've come to be so very special.

why is it not enough to accept that nature is bloody complicated? I think it's because lay people have no idea how things really work. How does your body really work? How does DNA work? who "reads" DNA? how does one's metabolism really work? Whenever we're told about it, it all seems kind of science-fictioney. So there may as well be a portal to another world in our brains.

'wing, you claim that it's not about the importance of humanity, but it IS. You didn't just go eenie minie miney mo, I'll choose to speculate about the human consciousness existing on another plane, rather, than, say, speculate about whether mice are really super intelligent pan-dimensional beings who've come to study us - that's obviously why they're in all the labs. Free cookie for anyone who gets the reference.

http://www.gift-baskets-4u.com/images/Cookies/Milk%20Chocolate%20Chip%20Cookie.jpg

They are both silly unfalsifiable theories for which there is no support. They are, in my mind, equally silly and pointless to argue about.

No, Tiay, you're wrong. I believe that all living things (with a brain) are conscious, and "special". I already said that, so why are you assuming, still? Furthermore, if I did not understand how the physical part of it works, wouldn't I have asked a question related to that instead? Yes!

You seem to be unable to step outside things as you understand them. That is a level of ignorance. You posted once, that I jump to conclusions. Who is jumping to conclusions in this case?

And again, I have not made this thread to ARGUE about beliefs. So if you're close-minded, I am sorry, but this topic is not fit for you, because you can't be close-minded and actually have a discussion about such things.

Only-virgins
25-02-08, 10:17 AM
I used to think about this the same way lilwing does....when I was 12. No offense. I have nothing more to say here, the conscious mind is the byproduct of the brain and there is no reason to assume anything else. Though please do not assume I don't think "out side the box" I have in order to have come to the conclusion. I wrote a paper a LONG time ago in my Philosophy class on the conscious mind. Animals are not as conscious of their existence as we humans are and we have the much larger frontal cortex to thank for that.

You can call people closed minded and ignorant all you want because you think they don't think like you but that doesn't make them wrong. It is in fact pathetic and insulting that you would think that someone like me didn't consider EVERY option before coming to the conclusion I have come too. It is great pondering things like this, I used to think about these things all the time...falling asleep to it as sometimes...ideas like the conscious mind, free will and cause and effect, human choice and chance, ethics and all kinds of things...but after all that it became evident that the truth is always rational and logical.

The frontal lobes have been found to play a part in impulse control, judgment, language production, working memory, motor function, sexual behavior, socialization, problem solving initiation, facial movement, planning abilities, coordinating, and motivation. The frontal lobes assist in planning, coordinating, controlling, and executing behavior. People who have damaged frontal lobes may experience problems with these aspects of cognitive function, being at times impulsive; impaired in their ability to plan and execute complex sequences of actions; perhaps persisting with one course of action or pattern of behavior when a change would be appropriate (perseveration).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe

I know it is hard to comprehend by some people that it is just this that allows us to be self-aware of our existence and say "I am who I am" and it brings up questions such as "Why am I me and not him?" ...but these are old questions and have been answered already...it really is that simple...THE BRAIN!

Thank you evolution ! :D...oh and we are special and unique as the homo sapiens ...but that doesn't mean we need some unexplainable theories to attach to.

Hey, I'll share that cookie with you Tiay !

IndiReloaded
25-02-08, 10:30 AM
I'll choose to speculate about the human consciousness existing on another plane, rather, than, say, speculate about whether mice are really super intelligent pan-dimensional beings who've come to study us - that's obviously why they're in all the labs. Free cookie for anyone who gets the reference.

Douglas Adams, sweetie. That was an easy one. But give the cookie to OV b/c I prefer steaks from self-marketing cows. ;)

Only-virgins
25-02-08, 10:42 AM
Douglas Adams, sweetie. That was an easy one. But give the cookie to OV b/c I prefer steaks from self-marketing cows. ;)

I didn't know that. :sad2: ... thanks for the cookie :D

IndiReloaded
25-02-08, 11:13 AM
Told you, Dougie Adams was one of my favourite atheists. Own all his books (except the Salmon of Doubt), lol.

I think the mice show up in Restaurant at the End of the Universe, but not sure. Was reason for the cow reference (..just go in the back & shoot myself now). ;)

Only-virgins
25-02-08, 11:20 AM
Told you, Dougie Adams was one of my favourite atheists. Own all his books (except the Salmon of Doubt), lol.

I think the mice show up in Restaurant at the End of the Universe, but not sure. Was reason for the cow reference (..just go in the back & shoot myself now). ;)

I know Adams but I just couldn't figure out that the quote was from him. Ah well, mice in a restaurant at the end of the universe lol.

IndiReloaded
25-02-08, 11:29 AM
Nono, the mice are uber-intellects from another dimension. Earth is their billion-year old incubating experiment. They were just about to get their result (the ultimate answer to the meaning of life) but then were really pissed off when the Vorgons destroyed earth to make way for a space superhighway. LOL.

Maybe this was from 'Life, the Universe & Everything'. Someone can look it up on wiki, I suppose.

I hope I'm right (about Tiay's reference) else I'm going to feel pretty silly explaining all this... ;)

DoesntMatter
25-02-08, 12:53 PM
We humans seem to like to think that we're so f*cking special, and we need souls or spirits of consciousnesses or whatever else connected to us floating around on some other universe or plane or world or ethereal space to explain how we've come to be so very special.

I think people are special.

boobaa
25-02-08, 11:42 PM
Because it lacks a brain.

I thought you were a bit smarter than that.

Oh, and people are special, special like everyhting else in this world.

Oh, and I also love "Hitchhikers guide to galaxy".

vashti
25-02-08, 11:53 PM
::laughing::

Are you trying to say a rock is capable of thinking, booba?

Tiay
26-02-08, 12:13 AM
Hey, I'll share that cookie with you Tiay !

now that's what i'm talkin' 'bout :)

looks like we'll need more than one anyways, for all H2G2 fans!

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/plate-of-cookies.jpg



No, Tiay, you're wrong. I believe that all living things (with a brain) are conscious, and "special".

have you looked at the definition of the word special? Special is different from the norm. In the context of things on earth, there's quite a lot of them with a brain. And yes sure life is precious and amazing.. but, it doesn't need more than evolution to explain it.


Furthermore, if I did not understand how the physical part of it works, wouldn't I have asked a question related to that instead?

because you think that you understand the physical part, but you don't really. You find it more comforting and to believe that there must be something else going on. Admittedly, I don't understand the physical fully either. But I am content to say I don't know some things- I don't need to fill in the gaps.


You seem to be unable to step outside things as you understand them. That is a level of ignorance. You posted once, that I jump to conclusions. Who is jumping to conclusions in this case?

that's 'cos you did jump to conclusions :) All I am doing is giving scientific theory the benefit of the doubt. That's not a wobbly conclusion. That's an incredibly well grounded, much researched one. It's not a "jump" to conclude that, say, the law of gravity keeps things on the ground, rather than the noodly appendages of the spaghetti monster. In the same way, it is not a "jump" to conclude that the brain generates our consciousness, rather than it being linked to some other universe/space/etc.

In fact, believing that, say, our brains are merely a vessel for our consciousness which exists in some other place, with no actual proof of that, now that'd be jumping to a conclusion.


And again, I have not made this thread to ARGUE about beliefs. So if you're close-minded, I am sorry, but this topic is not fit for you, because you can't be close-minded and actually have a discussion about such things.

alright, bad word choice, sorry. By argue I meant debate/discuss. lol, so, you're deeming me not open-minded enough for your thread. Okay. So you're going to cherry-pick who you want to take part in the discussion about how consciousness is separate from the physical brain. And you're going to exclude people from the debate who aren't "open-minded" enough to believe in that.
yeah. have fun with that then.

boobaa
26-02-08, 01:55 AM
::laughing::

Are you trying to say a rock is capable of thinking, booba?

Now from where exactly did you come to that conclusion? And I know laughing is the best and most commonly used type of self defence. Accusation comes next.

The question raised before wasn't about having a brain, but why some molecules create conciousness. What exactly is conciousness, ok ok chemicals etc, but what separates it from everything else, what is self awareness and so called abilty to think? If you get what I mean. Where does the border go? Can chemical reaction between two substances in a glass be regarded as thought or at least the very basis of it?

Junket
26-02-08, 02:10 AM
'Wing is just goin' through the typical coming of age abstract thinking phase.

He'll get over it.

If not.

He'll commit suicide.

boobaa
26-02-08, 02:51 AM
How old is he?

But yes, probably the best way to know if conciousness exists outside physical body and after death is to kill yourself. Life is pointless after all, so why not?

anachronistic
26-02-08, 03:02 AM
'Wing is just goin' through the typical coming of age abstract thinking phase.

He'll get over it.

If not.

He'll commit suicide.

Something like that... doubt I will kill myself, I am more rational.

Tiay, it appears as though you're just eager to argue. I find it somewhat ironic that you contradict yourself, again. I particularly find it irritating that you are putting words in my mouth and assuming my knowledge and stand on things. It is logical to think that this conversation could be enjoyed by someone with an open mind. Someone like you is just going to tell me (in a nutshell) that I am stupid, and that I should just accept things the way science has theorized, and blah blah blah. I really do not need people closemindedly advocating such things in this thread. If you are going to post something in this thread, please take into consideration the atmosphere I have created for this thread; I am not 'cherry-picking'.

boobaa
26-02-08, 03:06 AM
"No, Tiay, you're wrong. I believe that all living things (with a brain) are conscious, and "special". I already said that, so why are you assuming, still?"

Ugh...
Actually you are both quite similar minded... someones belief in something doesn't make other peoples beliefs wrong...

Oh, and some people, like me, can be controversal because we like to switch sides on the name of being open minded.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 05:10 AM
I still think we are all just characters in a video game. Put another quarter in, have another go... ;)

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 05:32 AM
Now from where exactly did you come to that conclusion? And I know laughing is the best and most commonly used type of self defence. Accusation comes next.

The question raised before wasn't about having a brain, but why some molecules create consciousness. What exactly is consciousness, ok ok chemicals etc, but what separates it from everything else, what is self awareness and so called ability to think? If you get what I mean. Where does the border go? Can chemical reaction between two substances in a glass be regarded as thought or at least the very basis of it?

First of all, the science behind what you mentioned is already completely wrong. Our brain is a large nerve. If you can't comprehend how the brain works than get out of the thread and stop spreading nonsense. You don't understand how the chemical reactions work in the brain and your "chemicals in a glass" analogy makes no sense at all if you do, there is no nerve endings and receptors to receive information from these chemicals. I am sure that since you commented on all this though you know exactly what dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, epinephrine do and you know the complex workings of all the neurotransmitters in our brain. The ability to be self aware and think is created through the system that is the brain, the answer is not in one part....it is many parts working in unison to form consciousness. Not to mention that with out the memories growing that people have there is no consciousness. You throw in memories, emotions, and the five senses....and BAM... you get a being after a while that has created his own identity and now can say " I am because I say I am". Essentially your conscious awareness is your identity built over time.


someones belief in something doesn't make other peoples beliefs wrong...



True, as long as both are beliefs. unfortunately for you I am stating facts and not beliefs.




But yes, probably the best way to know if conciousness exists outside physical body and after death is to kill yourself. Life is pointless after all, so why not?

you first. Why would consciousness exist in the after life with no brain to function it? When you sleep your brain shuts off parts of the conscious mind. How does it feel when you sleep and not dream? You are aware of nothing and have no sense of time and space....no conscious mind..it is at idle...death is that but permanent...not really hard to imagine either if you think about it.


I thought you were a bit smarter than that.


Actually it was a pretty good and straight forward answer. You make no sense by calling her less smart. If anything you have failed so far in justifying any intelligence yourself, you have proven very well that you don't KNOW how the brain works or anything about it.

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 05:46 AM
Something like that... doubt I will kill myself, I am more rational.

Tiay, it appears as though you're just eager to argue. I find it somewhat ironic that you contradict yourself, again. I particularly find it irritating that you are putting words in my mouth and assuming my knowledge and stand on things. It is logical to think that this conversation could be enjoyed by someone with an open mind. Someone like you is just going to tell me (in a nutshell) that I am stupid, and that I should just accept things the way science has theorized, and blah blah blah. I really do not need people closemindedly advocating such things in this thread. If you are going to post something in this thread, please take into consideration the atmosphere I have created for this thread; I am not 'cherry-picking'.

It is cool. I like the thread. I don't want it to be some huge argument either. Just when people claim that they are open minded like boobaa but IGNORE all the facts I present them with.. it gets a bit frustrating you know? I think it is important and a good idea that you think about this yourself lilwing, and figure it out on your own. By the way, if I can still find it....I will tell you the title of this book I read. It wasn't about the brain but rather justifying how the brain causes a self aware identity. It was interesting because it dove into the ideas why we are so different and yet the same in some things. Essentially I think consciousness is not the debate here but our identity is...there is a thin line between the two. As you grow you gain a form of identity and your sense of BEING ALIVE and viewing the world changes and develops. This is why parenting is so important so kids don't get a distorted unrealistic view of the world.

DoesntMatter
26-02-08, 05:47 AM
pissant




____________

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 05:49 AM
...it is many parts working in unison to form consciousness. Not to mention that with out the memories growing that people have there is no consciousness. You throw in memories, emotions, and the five senses....and BAM... you get a being after a while that has created his own identity and now can say " I am because I can say I am".

I wonder if the internet is self-aware yet. Not sure how we could check tho... guess I'll have to wait until my computer starts communicating back w/me while I'm online.

Hey... wait a minnit.... :surprised

boobaa
26-02-08, 06:05 AM
First of all, the science behind what you mentioned is already completely wrong. Our brain is a large nerve. If you can't comprehend how the brain works than get out of the thread and stop spreading nonsense. You don't understand how the chemical reactions work in the brain and your "chemicals in a glass" analogy makes no sense at all if you do, there is no nerve endings and receptors to receive information from these chemicals. I am sure that since you commented on all this though you know exactly what dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, epinephrine do and you know the complex workings of all the neurotransmitters in our brain. The ability to be self aware and think is created through the system that is the brain, the answer is not in one part....it is many parts working in unison to form consciousness. Not to mention that with out the memories growing that people have there is no consciousness. You throw in memories, emotions, and the five senses....and BAM... you get a being after a while that has created his own identity and now can say " I am because I say I am". Essentially your conscious awareness is your identity built over time.



True, as long as both are beliefs. unfortunately for you I am stating facts and not beliefs.



you first. Why would consciousness exist in the after life with no brain to function it? When you sleep your brain shuts off parts of the conscious mind. How does it feel when you sleep and not dream? You are aware of nothing and have no sense of time and space....no conscious mind..it is at idle...death is that but permanent...not really hard to imagine either if you think about it.



Actually it was a pretty good and straight forward answer. You make no sense by calling her less smart. If anything you have failed so far in justifying any intelligence yourself, you have proven very well that you don't KNOW how the brain works or anything about it.

Don't be so agressive, OV. You seem like some kind of fundamentalist who is also oppressing his opinion too much to the others. Your kind of persons are the reason why people like Galilei were ignored... Exactly what nonsense do I spread by asking a question and raising a hypothesis without actually stating anything?
If you mean my first post, then you should understand already that that was half irony against vashtis empty fact post and also an opening for discussion that can lead into some fine arguments.

You are missing the point here. I know very well how the brain works, at least how people nowadays think it works.
You should get more into neurology, nanophysics and quantrum physics theories to widen your beliefs that are based on facts that we never actually see or touch. Bible was based on facts also...
You could learn that smallest particles almost act like they have their own mind, they react completely diffferently. Already there are laboratories that have one and the same particle in two different places at once. I guess that raises a good question about what is randomness and reality. If its all an illusion and one thing can exist in so many places, there are so many possibilities and our basis of mind is full of it. Quantrum physics, at some point, does prove that our world is only imaginary.
One more thing, world actually consists of nothing afterall, or lets just call it energy. So how cam we see the molecules and stuff just like we see them? It really is only about interpretation, because particles realy arent made up from much anything... So what creates the interpretation?

And about that sentence about my beliefs and your facts. First, your facts are also beliefs, because you believe the book, the physics, everything. Second, that statement you quoted didn't involve you at all, so why bother and try so hard?

And about that last statement. there is a possibility, you never know.
__________________

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 06:05 AM
I wonder if the internet is self-aware yet. Not sure how we could check tho... guess I'll have to wait until my computer starts communicating back w/me while I'm online.

Hey... wait a minnit.... :surprised

I would fly over to your place Indi to prove to you that I am a human behind a keyboard and not your computer but I fear you would make me your permanent pool boy. :)

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 06:10 AM
I would fly over to your place Indi to prove to you that I am a human behind a keyboard and not your computer but I fear you would make me your permanent pool boy. :)

Actually, I have just sent you an e-ticket. But don't be surprised when you arrive at the address to find a room w/a sleek, sexy supercomputer begging to be 'fingered' by a knowledgable unix user. ;)

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 06:14 AM
And about that last statement. there is a possibility, you never know.

I am being no more or less aggressive than you are. I don't really care. half the things you say are nonsense so I am not replying to you after this anymore. I am sure Noah's Ark was completely based on facts in the bible and so was Jesus's rise after death....yea right. I have taken quantum physics and have plenty knowledge in microbiology and science. What you do wrong is you present these hypothesis for an argument but you present no support for them. I can sit here and claim that ninja turtles are the cause of our conscious mind on a different planet again...shredder is the cause of our evil emotions. There is also the brain character too! ...IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW. there is always the possibility, you never know. The reality is that you either choose to believe what is tested and in font of you or you will always be one of the mystical/spiritual people who likes to believe in the wild spooky cookie stuff. It is the entire religious debate all over again. No more from me. I have made my opinion and have stated proven facts.

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 06:18 AM
Actually, I have just sent you an e-ticket. But don't be surprised when you arrive at the address to find a room w/a sleek, sexy supercomputer begging to be 'fingered' by a knowledgable unix user. ;)

lol, I like the warmth of a human body personally ;) ...it gets my "circuits" going.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 06:22 AM
They are just having a foo-foo brain stretching exercise, OV. I've had lots of these (usually along w/lots of alcohol).

Roger Penrose (yes, THAT Penrose) thinks that consciousness is the result of quantum effects w/in our nervous system. He even wrote a book on it (Shadows of the Mind). Is he insane? Probably. Is it fun to think about... I think so. I don't worry unless somebody starts to actually fund this stuff w/public money.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 06:26 AM
lol, I like the warmth of a human body personally ;) ...it gets my "circuits" going.

Can't help you then, hon, sorry. I'm the 'cool' sort of dinkum-thinkum. :D

Hear there are good PhD programs in Vancouver tho... lots of young, pretty girls to study too. :detective

Only-virgins
26-02-08, 06:31 AM
Hear there are good PhD programs in Vancouver tho... lots of young, pretty girls to study too. :detective

Hmmm, I could always use one of those......the PhD of course!

boobaa
26-02-08, 06:52 AM
OV should learn to separate fact from hypothesis or just a mere investigating question. Don't you question anything, OV? Just state whats wrong and whats right? You act like this in many threads, like you were pissed on something. I know I can be arrogant too, but that doesn't justify you. Try be a bit less arrogant to those who are not as smart as you, ok?
Noahs Ark? Well, people shure believed it was a fact back in the day because that was the only explanation, seemed logical at the times. Same goes with Earth being flat, lightwaves, etc which actually had proof until more proof came about the opposite...

Double slit theory proves the particle in two places stuff... it has now being conducted in very diverse ways with very diverse molecules in many laboratories...

But then again, most of that is still a theory. In fact, most of the science is. We do not know how the brain works, therefore some of your rare statments that can be found between accusations have not much value. Its like I ask how the thought works, and you answer its the brain (just like vashti did)....

I don't know what foo-foo means, but I have always liked to filosophy over things without actually any reason. And what is wrong with that?

Tiay
26-02-08, 06:56 AM
Something like that... doubt I will kill myself, I am more rational.

good to know


Tiay, it appears as though you're just eager to argue.

are you saying it was a Freudean slip? ^.^ well, I promise you, I find arguing about pretty much everything pointless. By arguing, I mean trying to sway someone else to your view, and by debate I mean exchanging views. However, technically an argument can be part of a debate, so, maybe my definitions are off.



I find it somewhat ironic that you contradict yourself, again.

Are you referring to when I said that you don't understand the physical workings of the brain? That was simply my answer to your question. I am not claiming it as truth. it is simply my view. It is part of my, well, argument. I don't mean it as an insult to your intelligence, either. The physical workings of the brain is something that we simply don't seem to know everything about. Unless you've studied the brain for years, saying that you do not understand the physical workings of the brain is not an insult.


I particularly find it irritating that you are putting words in my mouth and assuming my knowledge and stand on things.
yes, i'm assuming that you have not been studying the workings of the brain all these years. I could be wrong. I for one think it is a reasonable assumption.
What words did I put in your mouth?


It is logical to think that this conversation could be enjoyed by someone with an open mind. Someone like you is just going to tell me (in a nutshell) that I am stupid, and that I should just accept things the way science has theorized, and blah blah blah. I really do not need people closemindedly advocating such things in this thread. If you are going to post something in this thread, please take into consideration the atmosphere I have created for this thread; I am not 'cherry-picking'.

you clearly are doing so. You say "Someone like you"; so i've already been put in a category of people who'd tell you to accept things as science suggests they are. Someone like me is not fit for this thread. So you're excluding the type of person who'd put forward scientific arguments. That's. called. cherry. picking. You explained it so well yourself in the above paragraph, that I don't really know what to add.

I'm not saying, however, that this is a bad thing. It's not like you're cherry picking candidates for a study, on the result of which hinges the sale of a controversial drug, thus resulting in the deaths of hundreds. Or something. You're just picking who to talk to about something. We all do this to some extent.
Clubs meet to talk about specific things all the time. People even label their views on certain things like religion and politics so that they can associate with like-minded people, and so that they can surround themselves with television channels and newspapers that are grounded on the same beliefs and opinions.

This is great, because you don't have to keep defending the reasons for your beliefs to people who have completely different ones. Instead, you can file out and explore the nuances of your belief with people who already agree with on the major factors involved.

However, that way you wont find any fundamental challenge of your beliefs in the debate. And that's fine if that's what you want. But don't pretend you're having a proper, all inclusive debate here. If you want to sit at the brain-and-consciousness-are-separate-things table, and only talk to people also sitting at that table, then that's fine with me. I'll be across the room at the science-explains-everything table. Just remember to wander away from your table now and then... put your views to someone at another table and see what happens.

[/rant]

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 07:06 AM
I don't know what foo-foo means, but I have always liked to filosophy over things without actually any reason. And what is wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing. 'Foo-foo' is just my nonsense word for things that may be intellectually interesting, but aren't actually testable in a scientific sense. Fun to think about, but only in the sense of 'brain stretching' rather than actually expecting to increase our actual factual knowledge base on a subject. Sort of like discussing art, or philosophical ideas.


OV should learn to separate fact from hypothesis or just a mere investigating question. Don't you question anything, OV?

I think hypothesis = investigating question, boobaa. They are the same. Meaning a question that will produce facts that either adds to or detracts from the strength of a theory. OV probably thinks the same.

Discussions of the nature of consciousness are necessarily esoteric & I think everyone posting here understands this. While there is some interesting neuroscience being done, truth is noone really knows how to even ASK the questions yet, much less test hypotheses leading to answers.

If you like thinking about this subject, I would suggest the movie 'What the Bleep do We Know?'; the 'scientists' in the movie are mostly nuts (IMO) but the ideas are fascinating both of themselves & how ppl respond to thinking about them.

vashti
26-02-08, 07:19 AM
Its like I ask how the thought works, and you answer its the brain (just like vashti did)....


I don't know why you keep dragging me into this. I only answered 2 questions:

1) what gives (us) the ability to be conscious (to which I answered reticular activating system)

2) how do we know a rock isn't conscious (to which I answered it lacks a brain).

To the best of my knowledge, these are both true statements. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. Otherwise, leave me outta this.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 07:25 AM
I don't know why you keep dragging me into this. I only answered 2 questions:

1) what gives (us) the ability to be conscious (to which I answered reticular activating system)

The only addition I have to this is replace 'conscious' with 'awake'. I am assuming you are talking about those nasty cat studies where they sectioned their brainstems above & below regions of the RAS? In some cases, the cats couldn't wake up (but were alive) in others they were perpetually awake & couldn't sleep (and eventually died).

I know how to measure 'awakeness'. I haven't the foggiest how to measure 'consciousness'. In cats or humans. For all I know, little Ms. Meow w/her sectioned brainstem was perfectly conscious in her dream state, chasing Jerry around the barnyard. About as useful a question tho, as 'what is the sound of one hand clapping'.

Besides, based on my observations, there are a lot of unconscious humans walking around.

Slap me for being a pedant, anytime Vash. ;)

anachronistic
26-02-08, 07:35 AM
good to know



are you saying it was a Freudean slip? ^.^ well, I promise you, I find arguing about pretty much everything pointless. By arguing, I mean trying to sway someone else to your view, and by debate I mean exchanging views. However, technically an argument can be part of a debate, so, maybe my definitions are off.




Are you referring to when I said that you don't understand the physical workings of the brain? That was simply my answer to your question. I am not claiming it as truth. it is simply my view. It is part of my, well, argument. I don't mean it as an insult to your intelligence, either. The physical workings of the brain is something that we simply don't seem to know everything about. Unless you've studied the brain for years, saying that you do not understand the physical workings of the brain is not an insult.


yes, i'm assuming that you have not been studying the workings of the brain all these years. I could be wrong. I for one think it is a reasonable assumption.
What words did I put in your mouth?



you clearly are doing so. You say "Someone like you"; so i've already been put in a category of people who'd tell you to accept things as science suggests they are. Someone like me is not fit for this thread. So you're excluding the type of person who'd put forward scientific arguments. That's. called. cherry. picking. You explained it so well yourself in the above paragraph, that I don't really know what to add.

I'm not saying, however, that this is a bad thing. It's not like you're cherry picking candidates for a study, on the result of which hinges the sale of a controversial drug, thus resulting in the deaths of hundreds. Or something. You're just picking who to talk to about something. We all do this to some extent.
Clubs meet to talk about specific things all the time. People even label their views on certain things like religion and politics so that they can associate with like-minded people, and so that they can surround themselves with television channels and newspapers that are grounded on the same beliefs and opinions.

This is great, because you don't have to keep defending the reasons for your beliefs to people who have completely different ones. Instead, you can file out and explore the nuances of your belief with people who already agree with on the major factors involved.

However, that way you wont find any fundamental challenge of your beliefs in the debate. And that's fine if that's what you want. But don't pretend you're having a proper, all inclusive debate here. If you want to sit at the brain-and-consciousness-are-separate-things table, and only talk to people also sitting at that table, then that's fine with me. I'll be across the room at the science-explains-everything table. Just remember to wander away from your table now and then... put your views to someone at another table and see what happens.

[/rant]

Jumping to conclusions again?

You can take part, just don't advocate. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't think. I am quite sick of that.

anachronistic
26-02-08, 07:38 AM
I still think we are all just characters in a video game. Put another quarter in, have another go... ;)

I think something similar. :) Except I believe that one eventually comes to know how to end this process.... when they are ready.

anachronistic
26-02-08, 07:40 AM
It is cool. I like the thread. I don't want it to be some huge argument either. Just when people claim that they are open minded like boobaa but IGNORE all the facts I present them with.. it gets a bit frustrating you know? I think it is important and a good idea that you think about this yourself lilwing, and figure it out on your own. By the way, if I can still find it....I will tell you the title of this book I read. It wasn't about the brain but rather justifying how the brain causes a self aware identity. It was interesting because it dove into the ideas why we are so different and yet the same in some things. Essentially I think consciousness is not the debate here but our identity is...there is a thin line between the two. As you grow you gain a form of identity and your sense of BEING ALIVE and viewing the world changes and develops. This is why parenting is so important so kids don't get a distorted unrealistic view of the world.

Thanks OV, I really appreciated the points you shared thus far.

Anxiously waiting for the title of the book :D

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 07:44 AM
When I'm old & my body is dying, I want to be able to upload my consciousness to the internet. Charge around in those RPG game sites & destroy the characters of 'solid' humans, lol.

After I'm bored with that, I think I'll jump into the gal who's on this site & see if I can't help things along:

http://karigirl.com/index.html

anachronistic
26-02-08, 07:46 AM
When I'm old & my body is dying, I want to be able to upload my consciousness to the internet. Charge around in those RPG game sites & destroy the characters of 'solid' humans, lol.

After I'm bored with that, I think I'll jump into the gal who's on this site & see if I can't help things along:

http://karigirl.com/index.html

Hahahaha!

No wonder your name is indiereloaded I think you'd make a sexy virtual girlfriend, but that's just me.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 07:48 AM
Thanks OV, I really appreciated the points you shared thus far.

Anxiously waiting for the title of the book :D

Steiner's 'Evolution of Conciousness'. Just an educated guess.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 07:53 AM
No wonder your name is indiereloaded.

Ah, the ways of the LoveFor(um)ce are mysterious. There is an answer young grasshopper, but I won't just hand it to you. You must figure it yourself. ;)

Zach
27-02-08, 03:21 AM
Hey guys, quite the intense thread you got going here.

I haven't been around much lately but this is something the does interest me and I thought I might throw in a few thoughts of my own.

Consciousness. I can't help but notice that alot of the people here seem to think that it is merely a by product of this physical realm we are aware of. Humans are not special? We are just here accidentally?

Personally I find this terribly hard to accept without considering the 'big picture'. By the 'Big Picture' I mean how/why we have come to exist here.

I can guess that some would say that God put us here or maybe the big bang? Or even *insert countless religious beliefs*? Im sure some would say, there is no reason its all just live and die.

The truth is no one knows. The big bang? Where did it come from? Multiverse theory? where did all that come from?

God? Where did god come from? Physical existence/"byproduct awareness" without purpose? Were just cells in a bundle?

There is a trend here, its that everything comes down to a illogical/unexplainable essence. We have our ideas, but like mentioned in the beginning of this thread there is no answer, atleast at this point in man's experience through time and the cosmos. Whose to say that man will never know such things? I don't believe answers to any of these thoughts will surface until man has matured through the eons to discover the deepest and most profounds thuths of our universe and existence.

The best science has to offer is the big bang. I hold alot of respect for science, but science has a LONG ways to go before it can answer all this. Its up to all of us to build on the knowledge.

hmmm.. Its just that there is so many things that we dont know yet... Anything is possible.. You may die, and wake up and realize you have been plugged into a unrealistically advanced machine made to induce multiple life times in seconds.

ok ok lol now this is just silly but my point remains.

Tiay
27-02-08, 05:41 AM
Jumping to conclusions again?

You can take part, just don't advocate. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't think. I am quite sick of that.

aw, 'wing, I really didn't mean to offend you, please believe me. An exchange of views shouldn't be so traumatic.

anyway, I think I've pretty much said what I wanted to put out there ^.^ we'll see.

Only-virgins
27-02-08, 10:59 AM
Hey guys, quite the intense thread you got going here.

I haven't been around much lately but this is something the does interest me and I thought I might throw in a few thoughts of my own.

Consciousness. I can't help but notice that alot of the people here seem to think that it is merely a by product of this physical realm we are aware of. Humans are not special? We are just here accidentally?

Personally I find this terribly hard to accept without considering the 'big picture'. By the 'Big Picture' I mean how/why we have come to exist here.

I can guess that some would say that God put us here or maybe the big bang? Or even *insert countless religious beliefs*? Im sure some would say, there is no reason its all just live and die.

The truth is no one knows. The big bang? Where did it come from? Multiverse theory? where did all that come from?

God? Where did god come from? Physical existence/"byproduct awareness" without purpose? Were just cells in a bundle?

There is a trend here, its that everything comes down to a illogical/unexplainable essence. We have our ideas, but like mentioned in the beginning of this thread there is no answer, atleast at this point in man's experience through time and the cosmos. Whose to say that man will never know such things? I don't believe answers to any of these thoughts will surface until man has matured through the eons to discover the deepest and most profounds thuths of our universe and existence.

The best science has to offer is the big bang. I hold alot of respect for science, but science has a LONG ways to go before it can answer all this. Its up to all of us to build on the knowledge.

hmmm.. Its just that there is so many things that we dont know yet... Anything is possible.. You may die, and wake up and realize you have been plugged into a unrealistically advanced machine made to induce multiple life times in seconds.

ok ok lol now this is just silly but my point remains.

While most things can me argued down to relativity and can't be proven as something for sure ..some things have more supporting evidence than others and thus should replace them as the current idea or explanation. The "god" thing, just let it go people...I don't completely accept the Bing bang myself but it for sure as hell makes more sense than god. I still don't understand why some people can not except the infinite universe. By the way, matter was accounted for before the big bang on a energy level. Bing bang was an event and not the creation of the universe, rather the "formation" of the universe.

Mish
27-02-08, 11:39 AM
I think a very interesting question would be "What is considered cosciousness?"

Would alive brain in the box be considered conscious? If it's unable to touch, see, hear, taste and smell.

anachronistic
27-02-08, 01:16 PM
I think a very interesting question would be "What is considered cosciousness?"

Would alive brain in the box be considered conscious? If it's unable to touch, see, hear, taste and smell.

Consciousness is the awareness of one's existence through senses and surroundings.

I think all living things are conscious.

Mish
27-02-08, 01:32 PM
Consciousness is the awareness of one's existence through senses and surroundings.

I think all living things are conscious.

So, in this case would a living brain in the jar unable to sense it's surroundings be conscious?

If yes then awareness through senses is not needed to be conscious. If no then not all living things are conscious. ;)

Only-virgins
27-02-08, 02:44 PM
I think all living things are conscious.

Plants are not conscious but are alive.


I think a very interesting question would be "What is considered cosciousness?"

Would alive brain in the box be considered conscious? If it's unable to touch, see, hear, taste and smell.

It can be conscious, but it would have one hell of a time trying to prove it.

Tiay
27-02-08, 09:18 PM
I think a very interesting question would be "What is considered cosciousness?"

Would alive brain in the box be considered conscious? If it's unable to touch, see, hear, taste and smell.

hmmmm. I would say yes. as long as it is self-aware. But what if it isn't aware that it is in a box? what if it's being fed a false reality? ahh, the matrix question.

edit: though, I suppose that could be considered cheating, since you said a brain in a box with no outside stimuli. Could a brain even function that way?

how am I doing, 'wing?

anachronistic
27-02-08, 11:00 PM
Ah, the ways of the LoveFor(um)ce are mysterious. There is an answer young grasshopper, but I won't just hand it to you. You must figure it yourself. ;)

Well, I actually know who you were, for one. Who's the grasshopper now? HMM?? ;)



how am I doing, 'wing?

Better, interesting point you just shared. :)


Those are some points for me to ponder throughout the day. I will think about them while I am in class and maybe post my conclusions about them when I get back

misombra
27-02-08, 11:29 PM
Plants are not conscious but are alive.



It can be conscious, but it would have one hell of a time trying to prove it.

have you ever gone into the house of somebody who has bad energy, a drug addict, or a depressed person? if they have plants in their house, you can pretty much figure the mental state of the inhabitants by looking at them.

try it for yourself. if someone has plants see if they're happy, reaching for the sky, or if they're wilted and sad. even with sunlight and water a plant will be sad if the energy of the house is sad.

Zach
28-02-08, 01:12 AM
I know that during meditation one can completely cut off the 5 senses and remainly completely aware of the mind only. In this case I would have to say that its possible for a brain to be self aware without senses. Just a thought :)

Tiay
28-02-08, 04:16 AM
Better, interesting point you just shared. :)

thanks :)


have you ever gone into the house of somebody who has bad energy, a drug addict, or a depressed person? if they have plants in their house, you can pretty much figure the mental state of the inhabitants by looking at them.


I guess you have? It sounds creepy.


I know that during meditation one can completely cut off the 5 senses and remainly completely aware of the mind only. In this case I would have to say that its possible for a brain to be self aware without senses. Just a thought :)

Good point. Then again.. we can't know if they really can totally separate the senses. Seems like it wouldn't be the same as having no nervous connection. But, I don't see why a brain couldn't be self-aware without senses. But, an awareness of what would it be? We are aware of ourselves, our bodies, our existence in the world. We use our senses to ascertain those things. If your brain was suddenly isolated, wouldn't you loose some aspects of your self-awareness?

The brain contains an image/representation of your body in it. If someone pinches your arm, you're not feeling it on your arm, it's actually.. I usually imagine a little guy in your brain is looking at a map of your body and a wire from which the message came, and saying "well.. that must be on our arm".
This is why people with amputated limbs can still feel stuff on the missing limb. Without being able to maintain that body map, how would the brain cope?

Zach
28-02-08, 06:06 AM
thanks :)



I guess you have? It sounds creepy.



Good point. Then again.. we can't know if they really can totally separate the senses. Seems like it wouldn't be the same as having no nervous connection. But, I don't see why a brain couldn't be self-aware without senses. But, an awareness of what would it be? We are aware of ourselves, our bodies, our existence in the world. We use our senses to ascertain those things. If your brain was suddenly isolated, wouldn't you loose some aspects of your self-awareness?

The brain contains an image/representation of your body in it. If someone pinches your arm, you're not feeling it on your arm, it's actually.. I usually imagine a little guy in your brain is looking at a map of your body and a wire from which the message came, and saying "well.. that must be on our arm".
This is why people with amputated limbs can still feel stuff on the missing limb. Without being able to maintain that body map, how would the brain cope?

Well I think you would have to be right in some way because I think that the human brain is totally used to and probably completely adapted to using a body as a direct part of being now a days. Although Im sure in some other way it might be able to be aware of itself although if it were born with no senses it probably would experience a much different awareness overall than one who had all the same senses to begin with.

Strange.. although I think I have gotten off the topic a lil?

boobaa
28-02-08, 07:27 AM
Absolutely nothing. 'Foo-foo' is just my nonsense word for things that may be intellectually interesting, but aren't actually testable in a scientific sense. Fun to think about, but only in the sense of 'brain stretching' rather than actually expecting to increase our actual factual knowledge base on a subject. Sort of like discussing art, or philosophical ideas.



I think hypothesis = investigating question, boobaa. They are the same. Meaning a question that will produce facts that either adds to or detracts from the strength of a theory. OV probably thinks the same.

Discussions of the nature of consciousness are necessarily esoteric & I think everyone posting here understands this. While there is some interesting neuroscience being done, truth is noone really knows how to even ASK the questions yet, much less test hypotheses leading to answers.

If you like thinking about this subject, I would suggest the movie 'What the Bleep do We Know?'; the 'scientists' in the movie are mostly nuts (IMO) but the ideas are fascinating both of themselves & how ppl respond to thinking about them.

Hypothesis can be investigative question, but it might not. But I guess that is irrelevant right now anyway, just some nonsense of who can define things better, that have no significance to the topic...

And I don't think there is anything bad in brain-stretching. If you really mean thinking as learning to see things as they are, not just dreaming, then it can be really good experience. I call it meditation which comes down to whole life lasting session. You learn to see things as they are and accept it or change some things without any kind of illusion, it creates a whole lot of better feeling in the end and your life is fulfilled.
About the brain-stretching stage... hmm, yeah i think every teenager goes trough some point when they seem to know everything, but it depends what level are you talking about right now. For some, it last whole life, and its normal because people are different and act differently.

Oh and I have seen the movie "What the bleep do we know".. was a good introduction.

And Zach, according to science, our brain is very much not used... there are even people who doesn't have much brain or just have half of it, and they live normal life, heh. Or did you mean something else? I am sorry, I haven't looked trough the whole thread... A different awareness? Hmm, thats an interesting question. You ever wondered how blind-and deaf people feel, sence and think? And, have you also thought about an octupus, who according to the amount of separate controllable body parts, must have very complicated brain, I wonder how he senses things.

Only-virgins
28-02-08, 07:57 AM
Well I think you would have to be right in some way because I think that the human brain is totally used to and probably completely adapted to using a body as a direct part of being now a days. Although Im sure in some other way it might be able to be aware of itself although if it were born with no senses it probably would experience a much different awareness overall than one who had all the same senses to begin with.

Strange.. although I think I have gotten off the topic a lil?

People born with no senses are vegetables their entire life and barely survive. Those who are born with a lack of certain senses, depending on which ones, are mentally retarded through out their entire life and have a harder time accomplishing things compared to those who have these senses. Their IQ is dramatically lower compared to those living healthy lives.


have you ever gone into the house of somebody who has bad energy, a drug addict, or a depressed person? if they have plants in their house, you can pretty much figure the mental state of the inhabitants by looking at them.

try it for yourself. if someone has plants see if they're happy, reaching for the sky, or if they're wilted and sad. even with sunlight and water a plant will be sad if the energy of the house is sad.

Define "bad energy". My answer is no....but I can imagine how a pot head could neglect taking care of his plants and smoking around them(which is no good for plants) and making the plants look like shit. Lets not be silly, plants are not conscious but they are alive. Thanks though, I loled.


according to science, our brain is very much not used... there are even people who doesn't have much brain or just have half of it, and they live normal life, heh.

False, lies. Show me where science says this directly? Every part of a brain has a specific function. When brain matter is lost there are always consequences, you can live but there are consequences. The false rumor that says only a certain percentage of out brain is used has gone to far, but that is all it is...a bad rumor. I don't mind hearing an opinion but I don't like when people lie in the name of science.

http://members.shaw.ca/hidden-talents/brain/jpg/b-right.jpg

By the way, the left brain is just as busy with the functions that it has.

Only-virgins
28-02-08, 08:11 AM
Here is an interesting story for you guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Please read some of this, it is very interesting. If you guys have the interest in how the mind works.



Phineas P. Gage (July 9?, 1823 – May 21?, 1860) was a railroad worker remembered for his incredible survival of a traumatic brain injury which destroyed one or both of his frontal lobes, and for the injury's reported effects on his personality and social functioning—effects said to be so profound that friends said he was "no longer Gage."

He was NO LONGER Gage, guess that piece of metal pipe that destroyed his frontal lobes managed to open up a portal to the other conscious dimension where he went.

IndiReloaded
28-02-08, 08:58 AM
Well, I actually know who you were, for one. Who's the grasshopper now? HMM?? ;)

I wondered, never having gotten the 'noob' comments from you. I am your little love cricket then, LW. At your disposal.

:bows:
:oriental:

Mish
28-02-08, 09:35 AM
Good point. Then again.. we can't know if they really can totally separate the senses. Seems like it wouldn't be the same as having no nervous connection. But, I don't see why a brain couldn't be self-aware without senses. But, an awareness of what would it be? We are aware of ourselves, our bodies, our existence in the world. We use our senses to ascertain those things. If your brain was suddenly isolated, wouldn't you loose some aspects of your self-awareness?

The brain contains an image/representation of your body in it. If someone pinches your arm, you're not feeling it on your arm, it's actually.. I usually imagine a little guy in your brain is looking at a map of your body and a wire from which the message came, and saying "well.. that must be on our arm".
This is why people with amputated limbs can still feel stuff on the missing limb. Without being able to maintain that body map, how would the brain cope?

I agree with that

I think there is more to consciousness than we think. I don't think it's simply located in one place.

anachronistic
28-02-08, 09:39 AM
I wondered, never having gotten the 'noob' comments from you. I am your little love cricket then, LW. At your disposal.

:bows:
:oriental:

Ohh love cricket? I like the sound of that :D

I recognized you right off the bat, remembering you from beforehand... oh, and by the way, your custom user title is "Returning LF Alumni" if you've forgotten. ;)

Tiay
28-02-08, 05:46 PM
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp
the myth that we only use 10 percent of our brains has hung on so long because people like the idea that 90 percent is there, untapped, available to explain all sorts of paranormal abilities. People simply like the idea.


I agree with that

I think there is more to consciousness than we think. I don't think it's simply located in one place.

ah, duality. I don't agree with that conclusion, but hey, that's just me.

Zach
28-02-08, 11:24 PM
Yeah, I have always heard people say that we only use a small % of brain. I tend to be skeptical but I do my best to keep a open mind.

I have my own idea's about our brains but unfortunately I lack any evidence to support it. I think that instead of using only 10% of our brain we might only be using 10% of the capacity at which the brain can work. Kind of like running a nascar engine only at 10 mph although the whole engine is being used it still has much more room for improvement.

I would recommend everyone checking this video out, I found it incredibly interesting. It blows science away :)

This is the 1st part of the video, there are 2 more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTIApotjNI4

His brain structure must be somewhat different than our own?

Boobaa,

As for not having senses and still being self aware, Im pretty sure this is possible and for the most part would end up with a less intelligent brain in the long run. A awareness of self in this physical world without senses wouldnt do the brain much good at all. Like OV said, it would probably end up being so primitive that it wouldnt seem very alive at all. Although Im curious about what sort of thoughts a brain like this would have. It wouldn't have any of the 5 senses to use so what would its dreams be like? Or rather, what kind of dreams would it have?

I guess I think theres too much more to discover to come to any serious conclusions quite yet about consciousness. :)

Tiay
29-02-08, 12:56 AM
zach, I saw that thing before, it's very impressive. I don't see how it "blows away" science. Science explains this guy's brain just fine- maybe not as well as we'd like, but there is no fundamental mystery there.

I believe we can get a lot more out of our brains if we trained them. I don't, however, believe that it is drastic as 90%. That doesn't make evolutionary sense. Our brains are our main assets, really, and our high energy high meat diet made it possible. It is a big liability in times of hardship. Evolution would not give us a bigger brain with more capacity than we absolutely need to survive and reproduce.

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 05:42 AM
Yeah, I have always heard people say that we only use a small % of brain. I tend to be skeptical but I do my best to keep a open mind.

I think its more to do with 'known function' rather than it not having one.

Scientists used to say that most of our DNA was useless 'junk' until ppl started doing experiments and figuring out what its function is.

In my opinion, biology has been around so long that practically everything has a function, we just may not know what it is. New science findings in the last 20 years has almost come down to 'if you can imagine it, biology already has'. So once you come up with an idea you just go looking for the example of your imagining. I could fill pages listing examples of this type of thing.


I have my own idea's about our brains but unfortunately I lack any evidence to support it. I think that instead of using only 10% of our brain we might only be using 10% of the capacity at which the brain can work.

FWIW, I agree with this^. My personal reasons comes from observations of children. Kids today are exposed to concepts much younger than I ever was & they are just sopping it up like dessicated sponges.

Is the internet conscious? What do you think?

Only-virgins
29-02-08, 05:56 AM
Kids today are exposed to concepts much younger than I ever was & they are just sopping it up like dessicated sponges.

There are different reasons for that but I am just gonna leave it alone. College today is what high school was a while back. It used to be where a HS diploma actually meant something, today it is just a stepping stone if you want anything done.

Tiay
29-02-08, 09:18 AM
Is the internet conscious? What do you think?

mmmm no. at least I hope not! but, could it become conscious? Can man create consciousness in a programme or robot?

I think you might like some of Cory Doctorow's fiction, indi.

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 01:29 PM
mmmm no. at least I hope not! but, could it become conscious? Can man create consciousness in a programme or robot?

I think you might like some of Cory Doctorow's fiction, indi.

Thank you Tiay! I hadn't recognized the name until I did a search & realized he was the Forbes 'Giving it Away' fellow! And interesting fellow, Canadian too. Will check out his books.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 01:34 PM
Canada eh?

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 01:38 PM
OV I think the point boobaa was making was that the brain wasn't being used to it's capacity, even though it's functions are spread out. I remember hearing about a guy who had one hemisphere of his brain removed and he regained much functioning. I mean, would lobotomies be possible if you needed all your brain?

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 01:55 PM
I agree our brains aren't trained to full capacity. The idea you can train/retrain your thinking is gaining new momentum, tho there used to be this 60s mvmt called 'human potential', dunno where they all went tho--Wall Street? All the mind-body stuff out there touches upon this stuff, but unfortunately the field is full of quacks & psychos.

If you want to improve your brain, first work on self-discipline. Everything else comes from that. Free flow thought w/o purpose is pretty useless, IMO.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 01:59 PM
It's true. Looking back to just 2 years ago I'm convinced I may have been mentally retarded.

If you want to use your brain you need to pick up some math books. Start off small, like some basic algebra and geometry books, then move on to some differential and integration in a single variable, then some books on multivariable and linear algebra, and before you know it you'll be doing vector analysis in your sleep. What I'm getting at is it is these types of readings that cause you to use your brain

Only-virgins
29-02-08, 03:25 PM
*sigh* ... The brain is a self correcting system. We use FULL potential of our brain. The difference is how much of it is devoted to what. I am sure everyone of you have heard of cases where blind people have a stronger sense of hearing or smell. The brain re-wires itself. At all time though all brain matter is being used. Our brain is really tightly packed into our skull and is weaved around...which would stretch a good distance if pulled apart. Survival stories, though inspirational, mean nothing. If a vital brain area is injured...brain death occurs and the person dies...your cases not such a vital area is injured...in this case whatever area is damaged that will be causing the victim problems...such as if the right hemisphere area that controls the left arm is damaged ...twitching and loss of muscle control in the left arm WILL happen. There have been than cases where something vital like that may be re-routed to a different area but of course at the cost of something less important.

So if you train your brain and do a lot of math, great. Your artistic ability may suck a bit more...or not...but you will never know at the cost of what. Brain doesn't reach any type of potential...it reaches maturity...at around the age of 25.


I mean, would lobotomies be possible if you needed all your brain?

I never said you need all your brain. Whatever part of the brain that is removed ...the responsibility that it had will cause problems. This was about the conscious mind right? The frontal lobe is largely responsible for that, just like the example I gave where an injury to the Frontal lobe caused a complete change in personality...almost a new person.

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 03:42 PM
*sigh* ... The brain is a self correcting system. We use FULL potential of our brain. The difference is how much of it is devoted to what.

I don't think I agree with this OV. My neuroscience is rusty, but what I remember says that the brain is plastic & you can alter things like chemical storage in synapses, speed of action potentials and that kind of thing. So, I don't know how you can say we are already using FULL capacity of our brain.

I think of the brain as more like a reservoir that is only partially tapped. This type of system already occurs in other systems, e.g. fat cells. i.e. we may use all our fat cells that we have, but that doesn't mean we use them to their FULL capacity. I can't think why the brain should be any different.


At all time though all brain matter is being used.

Yes, again so are fat cells. Point?



So if you train your brain and do a lot of math, great. Your artistic ability may suck a bit more...or not...but you will never know at the cost of what.

There is no evidence I know that brain usage is 'zero sum'.

Are we getting messed up on term definition perhaps?

Only-virgins
29-02-08, 04:09 PM
I don't think I agree with this OV. My neuroscience is rusty, but what I remember says that the brain is plastic & you can alter things like chemical storage in synapses, speed of action potentials and that kind of thing. So, I don't know how you can say we are already using FULL capacity of our brain.

I think of the brain as more like a reservoir that is only partially tapped. This type of system already occurs in other systems, e.g. fat cells. i.e. we may use all our fat cells that we have, but that doesn't mean we use them to their FULL capacity. I can't think why the brain should be any different.

We can get faster. Increased blood flow(to a degree) can help focus as well. I just didn't see potential this will, as much as just storage room itself. The amount of storage is used at all times to the full potential...I'll try to get a link to this article I read, though I read it in a book. I'll try though. Our memory doesn't take up physical space like a hard-drive may have...the brain adapts to store the memory. Either way, that doesn't make it evidence but I know that the brain re-wiring itself was proven...specially through experience of handicaps who lack an extra sense. Everything we know about the brain is by either looking at behavior or comparing it to other things that function similarly. Hard to study something like the brain when you can kill a host...and lose a life.

IndiReloaded
01-03-08, 01:46 AM
If we are already using our brain to full potential then how do we learn anything new? Are you saying that once we reach maturity we have to lose something to gain something else (zero sum)? I'm not aware of any evidence for this, I can't even think how you would do this experiment. Brain capacity isn't a known quantity like the space on a HD.

If its true, tho, that would be fascinating, and would argue even more strongly for intense early education of children. Related to this, I do know that we LOSE connections that aren't maintained early on (its a normal & necessary part of brain development). Is this what you mean?

Now, this makes me wonder whether the brain has the equivalent of a 'zip algorithm' for storage. I bet it does (if you can imagine it....). ;)

IndiReloaded
01-03-08, 01:52 AM
We can get faster. Increased blood flow(to a degree) can help focus as well. I just didn't see potential this will, as much as just storage room itself. The amount of storage is used at all times to the full potential...I'll try to get a link to this article I read, though I read it in a book.

It wasn't Kandel & Schwartz by chance (Principles of Neuroscience)? I own an older copy of that text, I can dig it out. Tho there's a chance it won't have the info (my edition of 'Molecular Biology of the Cell' is missing tons of stuff).

DoesntMatter
01-03-08, 11:18 AM
When you use your brain more, additional NMDA receptors are created in your neural synapses and this is directly involved in learning (and learning potential). When you have more of these receptors in your brain that can fire and associate with other neurons, you can say you increased your potential

misombra
01-03-08, 12:07 PM
i equate consciousness with the energy that flows through the universe. i believe it's in the brain too. but our brains are made of the same stuff.

the worst thing about consciousness, which i also think is the worst thing about religion, is when one group of people decide that they are the only ones that are right.

worst, most costly mistake, ever.

Only-virgins
02-03-08, 09:04 AM
i equate consciousness with the energy that flows through the universe. i believe it's in the brain too. but our brains are made of the same stuff.

the worst thing about consciousness, which i also think is the worst thing about religion, is when one group of people decide that they are the only ones that are right.

worst, most costly mistake, ever.

Though technically only one group can be right. The worst mistakes and most costly ones are having multiple groups.

bohemiandonut
07-03-08, 07:09 AM
F*ck DM, I'm going to need you in Berkeley within the next 3 hours so you can take my physics midterm for me. I'm assuming you're still pretty cool with simple circuits and magnetism. See you soon.

IndiReloaded
07-03-08, 07:25 AM
F*ck DM, I'm going to need you in Berkeley within the next 3 hours so you can take my physics midterm for me.

LOL, we were just discussing this problem at dinner the other night (other ppl sitting a students exam). Was a case of twins in different programs & no way to tell them apart (their photo IDs look the same).

DoesntMatter
07-03-08, 02:03 PM
F*ck DM

Are you making me an offer? ;)