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Junket
26-02-08, 01:06 PM
After taking the aptitude test, I got back home by about 1pm. Thought about taking the day off, but then Barney called and told me if I wanted to get some hours, I could still come by and work a few.

Once I got there, he told me:

"You got here at 10, and you took an hour lunch. You can go boy scout on me, but I'm just trying to help ya out."

So instead of getting 4 hours, I got 6. That's an extra 20 bucks in my pocket. I just rolled with it. He also exaggerated the time we spent working on Saturday.

This is dishonest, and I'm not even pulling from a faceless corporation, but some stuck up architect. Check by check, week by week.

However, I don't feel that bad about it. I need the money.

Anybody wanna chastise me?

anachronistic
26-02-08, 01:21 PM
He ought to roll up one of his architecture plans and beat you mad with it.

Who is it hurting? I see it as a win/win if you ask me. You're probably underpayed anyway.

IndiReloaded
26-02-08, 02:25 PM
Its your face in the mirror.

If you don't think you are being paid enough, ask for more money.

Junket
27-02-08, 07:01 AM
Its your face in the mirror.

If you don't think you are being paid enough, ask for more money.

Nah, I don't really care, especially if Barney doesn't. I was just thinking about that while I was working yesterday. Like, I would normally say I'm an honest person. But that kind of action is very dishonest, in that I'm lying, and also taking advantage of another person...essentially stealing from them.

I cannot believe I'm the only one who has done this, though.

GrkScorp
27-02-08, 07:13 AM
Anybody wanna chastise me?

Nope.. honestly Fras, your needs vs. his needs..

You're both in some reasonable position to meet your needs.. he didn't take the right action or amount of effort to safeguard his assets.. and you clearly, in effect, worked harder to turn those assets over to you.. it's a battle, a tug-of-war, a conflict of interest between the employer and the employees.. and he failed to not only safeguard his assets, but to keep good records and prevent this type of thing from happening.. (via, seperation of duties which are incompatible for accounting system purposes)

This is the type of thing that happens when an employer or company leaves such flaws open and vulnerable in an accounting system..

As a CPA, I don't judge you Fras.. I judge your boss.. in the worst light possible.. we have a name for people like him (besides "idiots".. "leaky buckets".. and there's nothing wrong with sticking your hands under a leaky bucket, because if you don't.. someone else will.. it's not the hands who are at fault.. that's normal, understandable, natural.. because it's human nature.. it's the owner of the bucket who's at fault, for letting it leak.. and arguably, for tempting the hands..)

Junket
27-02-08, 07:21 AM
As a CPA, I don't judge you Fras.. I judge your boss..

Justification as a means to dispelling guilt?

I'm down with that.

After all, we all know the Jews had it comin'. (Vash might slap me for that one)

GrkScorp
27-02-08, 07:32 AM
After all, we all know the Jews had it comin'. (Vash might slap me for that one)

Actually.. I might slap you for that too.. :D

But it's ok, I don't take my religion or ethnicity too seriously.. in fact, if someone is really Jewish culturally, a large part of our history was comedy and humor.. and part of that was the ability to take misfortune, adversity and basically any situation and laugh at it.. turn it into a joke.. and from that came self-degrading humor.. the ability to laugh at one's self and flaws.. from a comical stand point, and the art of it is catering that humor to an outside audience..

Same thing with My Big Fat Greek Wedding & Meet the Spartans..

I laughed so hard with that "free-society" scene.. "Yes! We're a free society".. and the.. "We'll lead them into narrows! Where their numbers won't count for sh*t!".. and I think I was watching it with this German girl.. (neurobiology-girl).. and I was laughing harder than her.. she asked.. "aren't you Greek? doesn't it bother you? not even a little?"

The answer is "no", because you can't take anything THAT seriously.. it's said with the intention of a joke.. not an insult.. so it's ok.. I'm sure if I was black and someone called me a "n*gger" but as a joke, i'd laugh.. even if he was wearing a white pillowcase over his head with two holes cut out for his eyes and a burning cross in one hand.. Now.. if it was intended to be an insult.. i'd be pretty pissed off.. and if he's by himself, i'd let him have a piece of my mind! but if there's a whole cult of them.. i'd start running..

vashti
27-02-08, 09:00 AM
I'm glad you are questioning this, Frasbee. Personally, I find it offensive to blame the employer, although with the wage you are earning, I understand the temptation. Morality is a luxury for those who aren't broke, it seems.

anachronistic
27-02-08, 09:07 AM
I like Grk's explanation of this, it's well said.

IndiReloaded
27-02-08, 09:13 AM
As a CPA, I don't judge you Fras.. I judge your boss.. in the worst light possible.. we have a name for people like him (besides "idiots".. "leaky buckets".. and there's nothing wrong with sticking your hands under a leaky bucket, because if you don't.. someone else will.. it's not the hands who are at fault.. that's normal, understandable, natural.. because it's human nature.. it's the owner of the bucket who's at fault, for letting it leak.. and arguably, for tempting the hands..)

If you mean that you would hold his supervisor responsible I agree, GS. But I would also reprimand the employee.

Fras, we have a saying in management: trust, but verify.

All I can say is that if one of my managers did this, I would replace them asap. I wouldn't necessarily tell them right away that I knew what they had done, tho. Just something to think about.

At the risk of sounding old-fashioned, Fras, here's a saying for you:

Reputation is what others know about you. Honour is what you know about yourself.

It may be just a lousy $10/hr job & so no big deal, that's one way to think about it. Another way is: Is it really worth compromising your morals for a lousy $10/hr job? Not judging you, Fras, just another thing to think about.

vashti
27-02-08, 09:15 AM
Good, lilwing. Let him take YOUR money.

anachronistic
27-02-08, 09:19 AM
Good, lilwing. Let him take YOUR money.

What? :surprised


______

vashti
27-02-08, 09:28 AM
Actually.. I might slap you for that too.. :D

But it's ok, I don't take my religion or ethnicity too seriously...

Well, THAT is obvious, not only from your laughing at Jewish "jokes", but also from your advocacy of taking what doesn't rightfully belong to you.

IndiReloaded
27-02-08, 09:29 AM
Good, lilwing. Let him take YOUR money.

Exactly.

She's saying, LW, would you want someone like this to manage YOUR money?

GS, lol, its a pity you are so young (23, right--that's a huge amount of management experience, lol), you would have fit in perfectly at Enron.

Consider the source guys. :surprised

anachronistic
27-02-08, 09:45 AM
Exactly.

She's saying, LW, would you want someone like this to manage YOUR money?

GS, lol, its a pity you are so young (23, right--that's a huge amount of management experience, lol), you would have fit in perfectly at Enron.

Consider the source guys. :surprised

Oh. All I said was that I liked Grkscorp's explanation, because it's well-written. I don't necessarily agree with everything he said.

vashti
27-02-08, 09:49 AM
???

Is this thread about critiquing someones writing style?

IndiReloaded
27-02-08, 09:51 AM
Ha! You already know how I feel about certain longwinded posts full of BS.

Better out than in, but flushed away as soon as possible.

anachronistic
27-02-08, 09:52 AM
???

Is this thread about critiquing someones writing style?

Well, I guess if you are going to keep straddling from the subject matter to criticize me for complimenting someone on short notice, yeah, it could be, so stop.

vashti
27-02-08, 09:58 AM
Better you should just admit you changed your mind, lilwing. ;)

anachronistic
27-02-08, 10:10 AM
Nah, I don't really care, especially if Barney doesn't. I was just thinking about that while I was working yesterday. Like, I would normally say I'm an honest person. But that kind of action is very dishonest, in that I'm lying, and also taking advantage of another person...essentially stealing from them.

I cannot believe I'm the only one who has done this, though.

It is more typical of one to be dishonest in your situation. Like I said, you're probably underpayed anyway, and it's not really hurting anyone.

When you see it is necessary though, you should try to be honest, because it could YOU, ultimately. Indie said that you should ask for a raise; I'm sure you're considering doing so, assuming I know you well enough. I don't think you really need people slapping you on the wrist telling you right from wrong though. You're a man, and you know what they say? A man is only as good as his word.

Responsibility :)


Better you should just admit you changed your mind, lilwing. ;)

Now now, you were wrong, Vashti. That's what you get for jumping on me with your assumations. :)

misombra
27-02-08, 10:34 AM
it sounds to me as though he is trying to be nice and help you out.

GrkScorp
27-02-08, 10:50 AM
Exactly.

She's saying, LW, would you want someone like this to manage YOUR money?

GS, lol, its a pity you are so young (23, right--that's a huge amount of management experience, lol), you would have fit in perfectly at Enron.

Consider the source guys. :surprised

Indi, again i'm flattered at all the effort you continue to take.. if only you'd put just some of that effort into researching the Sarbanes Oxley Act and internal controls before you post.. :D

Pre-Enron, there was no Sarbanes Oxley Act in place, and statutory requirement for companies to make any assertion on their Internal Controls..

And for the longest time, Auditors would take a look at the financials without much serious investigation to the nature of the Accounting System & Internal Controls a company had in place.. Today, (post-Enron & post-Sarbanes Oxley)

So the reason cases like Enron took place was simply because "they" (not accountants; officers and managers, with lots and lots of experience) COULD do it.. They would hand the auditors the financials, with no mention of the internal controls in place to suggest and sense of accuracy or reliability, or the level of integrity the management had in the preperation and maintaining the financials accurate.. Auditors would also not be required to test internal controls to see if they were actually in place.. so in effect, they would "take their word on it"..

Now, i'm not doubting that experience is important in whatever field you're in.. but when it comes to safeguarding money.. a manager, an economist, or financier; not even a bookkeeper can even attempt or claim to do a reliable job.. they're good in matters of business or in the case of the bookkeeper, journal entries.. but when it comes to understanding the framework of money flows, appropriation of assets, accounting systems, and internal controls.. you not only "prefer" an accountant.. you NEED an accountant.. and not just an accountant, but a CPA, who's at least had some experience in auditing public companies to be able to get his/her license..

The source is someone with an M.S. in Accounting and his CPA, with a better understanding of Accounting Systems, and how to close exploits, flaws, and failures in them.. and with special attention given to Internal Controls as part of Auditing since I learned accounting post-Enron & post-Sarbanes Oxley.. It's almost a science, with multiple layers, backups in the event one control defects, backups of backups, and so on.. Most companies now spend more time on hiring great Internal Auditors to set up strong internal controls; because in the first phase of a statutory audit, when the auditors need to determine how much testing/sampling they'll need to do to provide reasonable assurance that the financials are fairly presented; the more they can rely on the internal controls, the less testing/sampling they'll have to do, because strong internal controls will act as a filter to weed out fraud/errors (testing of both controls and financials still takes place).. and this will lead to less hours billed for staff auditors, and a lower fee..

And that's why i'm laughing, and judging Fras's manager in the worst light possible.. because he's non-public, so he's not obligated to file with the SEC or get audited.. so he feels he's cutting costs by not taking the time to set up a solid accounting system and internal controls to safeguard his assets and prevent "leakage".. but the joke is on him.. clearly.. You can also see that this isn't something a bookkeeper would catch, because the journal entries will add up.. the problem exists in verification of hours.. the problem is internal controls..

People like that deserve leakage.. sneaky, cheap, and lazy.. :french:

Junket
27-02-08, 12:09 PM
it sounds to me as though he is trying to be nice and help you out.

Oh, Barney has definitely tried to help me out. Several times.

He doesn't like the boss either, so that's definitely a factor. But he knows what it's like to be in my shoes, and I appreciate every bit of help he's given me.

It's hard not to turn down "free" money. There's no tax on this pay, so it's even better.

On the other hand, I pretty much just quit that job, I was stolen by one of the electricians he had hired who while, offering the same pay (of course, taxed), but is going to teach me electric work.

I worked my first day today.

I already love it...though not the commute.

I feel like I'm in survival mode. I haven't taken a full weekend off in 2 weeks. I've been here 3 weeks.

Doesn't seem like much I know, but it's starting to wear on me. Everyday I think about all the stuff I could be doing, things I could be seeing, places I could be going. But my conscience compels me to keep working. Keep stressing. Keep worrying.

It's definitely taking it's toll on me.

Mish
27-02-08, 12:34 PM
Reputation is what others know about you. Honour is what you know about yourself.

It may be just a lousy $10/hr job & so no big deal, that's one way to think about it. Another way is: Is it really worth compromising your morals for a lousy $10/hr job? Not judging you, Fras, just another thing to think about.

I like that line Indi

Positive self image is very important

Junket
27-02-08, 12:47 PM
I truthfully didn't dwell long on all of this.

It was more of a "huh...I guess I'm not that honest, after all"

--continues to sweep--

Plus, I thought it'd make for an interesting discussion.

However, it seems nobody else is fussing up to stealing office supplies, or clocking out at 6pm when it was really 5:29pm. Or taking an extra 15 minutes for their lunch break even though they're only clocked out for 30 minutes.

Why don't I feel bad?

Because I spent 3 hours taking that aptitude test prior to going in to work rather than sleeping in until 1 because I was too hung over to get up.

Is it wrong to steal bread if I'm starving?

Hell yes.

But I wouldn't give it a second thought.

"I prefer to see in shades of grey."

DoesntMatter
27-02-08, 01:15 PM
Clearly your boss isn't very bright if he has a system in place that it is so easily manipulated, if even for just a few extra bucks

vashti
27-02-08, 01:15 PM
Are you starving, Frasbee?

IndiReloaded
27-02-08, 01:53 PM
Indi, again i'm flattered at all the effort you continue to take.. if only you'd put just some of that effort into researching the Sarbanes Oxley Act and internal controls before you post.. :D

GS, sometimes you actually have me convinced you truly are a narcissist. Get over yourself you egomaniac, I didn't post that for your benefit.

I understand I make you insecure; perhaps you should try to learn from me rather than try to win a battle you are way outclassed for, hmm? Or send a PM to complain?

Grow up already.

IndiReloaded
27-02-08, 02:01 PM
Oh, Barney has definitely tried to help me out. Several times.

He doesn't like the boss either, so that's definitely a factor. But he knows what it's like to be in my shoes, and I appreciate every bit of help he's given me.

It's hard not to turn down "free" money. There's no tax on this pay, so it's even better.

Well, the fact you even asked means you had an issue. Anyway, its really all about accepting responsibility & risk/benefit. Are you willing to risk losing this job over something like this if you get caught billing extra hours you didn't work? If so, then its your choice.

I would also be wary of getting too schmoozy w/someone who would do this kind of thing. If shit were to hit the fan for something, your buddy may not be too inclined to save your bacon. What goes around, comes around usually.

What does Amy think about this?

GrkScorp
27-02-08, 03:19 PM
GS, sometimes you actually have me convinced you truly are a narcissist. Get over yourself you egomaniac, I didn't post that for your benefit.

I understand I make you insecure; perhaps you should try to learn from me rather than try to win a battle you are way outclassed for, hmm? Or send a PM to complain?

Grow up already.

Why not try and think of some reasons why you would start to make me feel insecure? If that's what you genuinely believe, i'm interested to find out.. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable enough talking about it openly.. but a hallmark of the insecure is a tendancy to result to insults and personal attacks.. in an attempt to try and bring down the other person's esteem.. it must really bother you deep inside when you have no idea what you're talking about.. I would normally ignore your rants and petty drama, because i'm sure it's just everyday stress that's venting.. but you brought up the issue of Enron.. and I thought you should just know the facts so that you don't humiliate yourself when you're talking to other people who actually know what happened..

It's people that have misunderstood the Enron crisis, (and it's not their fault.. it's the media's fault.. they did a sh*tty job of explaining what happened, but then again, nothing too exciting to report on during an accounting scandal.. you don't want your viewers falling asleep).. that have taken that "accounting scandal" and cast a cloud over the accounting profession.. it wasn't caused due to accountants.. The upper management and officers simply "cooked the books".. and handed them to the auditors, and because pre-SOX the profession's attitude towards internal controls come auditing was so lax.. auditors were i'll equipped, rather, I take that back.. they had the tools to catch the mistake.. it's just that there was no statutory requirement in place to force them to investigate internal controls to the amount of detail they do today..

Personally, I could care less either way.. i'm not an auditor.. taxation is the flip side of that coin.. just trying to be a little helpful there Indi.. but.. not going to bother with that ego and attititude of yours from now on.. i'll just leave you to your wikipedia.. but don't let that stop you from venting.. before you continue to vent though, take a moment to think if it's even worth posting in that state of mind.. don't get me wrong, I don't personally mind at all.. but maybe you should just PM instead of vent via posts.. but, it's up to you I guess.. what's important is that you do whatever you feel like doing now..

vashti
27-02-08, 09:57 PM
Grk, why are you trying to derail the topic?

GrkScorp
28-02-08, 04:48 AM
Anyway Fras, we did get a little off topic there, and for as much of that thatís my own responsibility, I do apologize.. I suppose the history of the Sarbanes Oxley Act isnít exactly that interesting..

But donít feel bad.. and donít let anyone else try and make you feel bad.. Itís not like you took money out of his account.. you billed more hours.. and thatís simply because you could..

I remember in high school, when I used to work at a dentistís office.. I would come in, she would hand me my time-card (think about it.. something so simple.. she would first have to see me, and SHE would have to hand me my card.. so the possibility of me getting together with an other assistant to pull one of those on her was not even there.. and all that was there was incentive for me to check my self in as soon as my fingers made contact with my time-card).. then, as the day came to an end.. SHE would punch me out, and hand me my card.. She was always fair.. Dr. Masters.. one of the best employers Iíve ever worked for.. but under such a simple system.. there was no room for funny business like that.. Lunch breaks were for 30minutes, inside the office.. Now, she was a root-canal specialist, and we did about 8-10 a day.. she was obviously very busy.. but she was also not lazy or lax about her internal controls.. To her, an extra $12 an hour here or there was nothing serious.. she would charge $850 per root-canal.. but at the end of the year, she knew how much it added up to..

See, employers like her are not ďmeanĒ.. theyíre ďorganizedĒ and ďproperĒ.. thatís exactly the way things should run.. (for a small business like that).. If she left the issue of time-cards entirely up to her assistants, then Iím sure someone would be tempted sooner or later.. thatís only natural.. thatís a normal human risk she would be taking by ďlettingĒ it happen.. something your employer is doing.. So from that perspective.. the party thatís more responsible and more deserving of blame is the employer, not the employee..

Junket
28-02-08, 06:31 AM
Well, the fact you even asked means you had an issue.

I asked because I find it hard to believe I'm not the only one who has fibbed on their hours.

Shit, I did this at GameStop too.

Now why are you guys dodging my question about yourselves?

DoesntMatter
28-02-08, 06:35 AM
Now why are you guys dodging my question about yourselves?



Anybody wanna chastise me?

No







___________

Junket
28-02-08, 07:35 AM
No







___________

Wrong question dumb f*ck.

It's like this entire thread, with every post in it has gone over everybody's head but 'Lil Wing's.

vashti
28-02-08, 08:20 AM
I don't intentionally walk off with employer's supplies (although I am sure I have inadvertantly walked off with a pen or something now and then) nor have billed for hours I didn't work. I try to be the kind of employee I'd want working for me. That said, I DO keep the hospital's bandage tape and a few bandaids with me in a little supply pouch when I am not working at the hospital so I won't have to go looking for it when I go to work.

I also think DM was supporting your position.

IndiReloaded
28-02-08, 08:35 AM
I asked because I find it hard to believe I'm not the only one who has fibbed on their hours.

Shit, I did this at GameStop too.

Now why are you guys dodging my question about yourselves?

Nope, never done what you said Fras. Not to sound superior, just never came up in the type of work I do. But our company does hire some contract employees & I already told you how we deal w/that kind of thing.

When I was a young student, my jobs were shift based, meaning I would work for a set shift/# of hours & then go home. Any work I chose to do in addition went unpaid. As a summer research assistant, I was paid a set stipend, if anything I tended to work more hours than I was paid, not less.

Has it occurred to you that the fellow who is 'offering' these extra hours to you is doing so for his own reasons? I would guess its a bit of a power trip for him. I say this only b/c if he really felt you were underpaid, there are other ways he could advocate for you than screwing his boss over. Sounds to me he's stepping outside of his job description & having a bit of fun playing 'boss'.

I find it really two-faced that someone can justify taking a paycheque from someone who's hard work (building a business) MADE that paycheque possible and then screw them over without batting an eye. There's something pathologically wrong with that attitude.

Ultimately, tho, I agree w/GS in that its the owner's problem. Our company has internal checks that come from accounting & admin & I have protocols in place for my own dept to deter theft & other issues. Mostly, tho, it has to do w/the fact that my managers & staff know I go to bat for them in cases where they think something needs looking at & I'm open to reasonable requests. Its too bad your owner isn't like this. But that doesn't make you any less responsible for your part. Its basically a form of white collar theft. If you are cool with that, then as I said, its your mirror.

I gotta be honest, tho. If you were coming to me for a job & I found out you had done something like this I wouldn't be inclined to hire you. I hope you don't get caught & never need a reference from this job. Take it for whatever its worth to you, but that's the opinion of someone from the 'other side' of the desk.

IndiReloaded
28-02-08, 08:52 AM
Grk, why are you trying to derail the topic?

Its a mental glitch when he doesn't have anything useful to say from his own experience. He's actually compelled to have to say something, lol. Fascinating. E.g. His last example of 'knowledge' on the subject came from a trip to his dentist's office.


but you brought up the issue of Enron.. and I thought you should just know the facts so that you don't humiliate yourself when you're talking to other people who actually know what happened..

I made a quip, I didn't bring up an 'issue' & you gave us a completely digressing lecture on a subject noone cared about (I'm glad you realized it was off-topic & unwanted, btw). But thanks for thinking of me; I'm sure I would be really humiliated if it weren't for you. LOL.

Do you know GS, why I shortened your SN to that? Because GS rhymes with... ? :D

Junket
28-02-08, 09:22 AM
It's not an issue of supporting my position or not, it's just that nobody seemed to get what I was nudging them towards...a reply similar to yours.

From what I've seen, considering I don't work with employees of the medical field...hour inflation is pretty common amongst the people I work with.

You get free or heavily discounted health care working for a hospital?

vashti
28-02-08, 09:26 AM
Nope. Not a penny, so far as I know. If I ever work for a physician personally, maybe I would.

Junket
28-02-08, 09:27 AM
I hope you don't get caught & never need a reference from this job. Take it for whatever its worth to you, but that's the opinion of someone from the 'other side' of the desk.

HA!

Welcoming to the working class.

This guy don't mean shit to me, he's under the table, and no taxes are bein' taken out of my pay.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm "unemployed".

Which means, my last job was Pool Pros, and I left on good terms with them.

Don't worry, I've already thought this shit through.

Doesn't matter, an electrician he just hired stole me the same day I inflated my hours.

Bennett just found out today, and he wasn't too happy.

Illusional
28-02-08, 10:36 AM
this isn't called being dishonest... it's called, really using your company time wisely. you'd better get used to it because everyone does it.

raverboy

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 08:38 AM
I also think DM was supporting your position.

Yeah but I was mostly just trying to ruffle Frasbee's feathers

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 01:39 PM
Meh. I'm done talking about this specific incident.

The general principle is all about choice Fras. So long as you choose an action with eyes wide open & you are willing to accept responsibility for whatever consequences arise, that's what it means to be an adult in a free society.

Too many ppl whine about their decisions, or lack of, IMO.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 01:44 PM
Something about accepting responsibilties-

People think that other people who commit crimes and fight them in court are trying to dodge responsibility. No- That is just another playing field for you to escape. It's not being a sore loser or anything. The prosecutor has the responsibility to prove you guilty. It's good to know the laws relating to the ones you intend on breaking beforehand so you know how to play on this playing field as well. That doesn't mean you need a law degree, but it is good to know the laws somewhat because they might change your actions *before* you end up in court

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 01:47 PM
You are a closet anarchist aren't you DM?

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 01:48 PM
Room for 1 more ;)

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:01 PM
Room for 1 more ;)

Okay. Got semtex? The old recipe, not the new one. ;)

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 02:04 PM
No, but TATP sure as hell isn't above me

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:10 PM
No, but TATP sure as hell isn't above me

Had to look that one up. Interesting, it doesn't use nitrogen.

This is why we just really need to kick back & relax. Its so friggin easy to f*ck each other up these days. Biologics, chems... you're right, a 1st year molecular or chem student can do this.

You should start a Free Love movement on your campus, DM.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 02:13 PM
Basically TATP is as easy an explosive as one can make, being an organic peroxide. The other way is to buy a liter of THF and let it sit around until it decomposes enough

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:19 PM
Basically TATP is as easy an explosive as one can make, being an organic peroxide. The other way is to buy a liter of THF and let it sit around until it decomposes enough

I've worked with fibreglass compound. Didn't realize that was the reason you don't let it sit around. I guess they add stabilizers to the commercial stuff, but we (geeks we are) have made it directly. Learn something new... :surprised

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 02:22 PM
Haha THF? Never let any ethers sit around, they all form peroxides. If you are going to you should keep it in an amber bottle under nitrogen

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:28 PM
Haha THF? Never let any ethers sit around, they all form peroxides. If you are going to you should keep it in an amber bottle under nitrogen

Its a ketone peroxide, comes in a little brown plastic bottle in small amts. But its a liquid at RT.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 02:32 PM
A ketone peroxide?

I'm trying to think of any molecule offhand with ketone and peroxide functional groups and can't think of any

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:40 PM
A ketone peroxide?

I'm trying to think of any molecule offhand with ketone and peroxide functional groups and can't think of any

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_ethyl_ketone_peroxide

You can get it in any hobbie shop.

DoesntMatter
29-02-08, 02:42 PM
Hehe, the oldies and their non-IUPAC naming conventions

IndiReloaded
29-02-08, 02:54 PM
I was gonna say, it *smells* like a ketone to me, so dats how I know but now I'm not sure. Meh, I should know better than to try to discuss w/an organic chemist. Getting lost. ;)

misombra
29-02-08, 09:55 PM
what the hell?

Mish
29-02-08, 10:49 PM
what the hell?

They're manufacturing a new line of drugs :)

IndiReloaded
01-03-08, 01:33 AM
Nerd alert, yes?

Sorry... got carried away. ;)

DoesntMatter
01-03-08, 11:10 AM
I was gonna say, it *smells* like a ketone to me, so dats how I know but now I'm not sure. Meh, I should know better than to try to discuss w/an organic chemist. Getting lost. ;)

Well it's just that calling methyl ethyl ketone peroxide a ketone is a misnomer, but that's just what it's called.

But yeah I love the smell of ketones. It's an easy way to gauge purity when a ketone is being consumed, no more sweet smell no more ketone

misombra
01-03-08, 11:55 AM
i was so terrible at biology and chemistry and all those physical sciences.

i am the opposite of a nerd i guess. i'm more of a street nerd. lol.

anyway, the one thing i remember from biology was carotenoids. i seem to only remember the stuff about plants and trees.

go ahead, call me a dum dum.

IndiReloaded
01-03-08, 03:24 PM
You give me gum-gum? ;)

YouTube - Dum dum!

vashti
01-03-08, 10:22 PM
I did very well in all of my science prerequisites for RN school (biology, chemistry, microbiology, anatomy, physiology) but I don't know how. Besides anatomy, I sure hated those classes. The professors were lovely, but they sure were a lot of work.

IndiReloaded
02-03-08, 04:56 AM
Well it's just that calling methyl ethyl ketone peroxide a ketone is a misnomer, but that's just what it's called.

But yeah I love the smell of ketones. It's an easy way to gauge purity when a ketone is being consumed, no more sweet smell no more ketone

I wonder if the ketone part came from there being two oxygens attached to that carbon (not a true ketone, agreed)

I loved chemistry, but been a while. I saw the IUPAC naming, butane w/peroxide groups attached makes sense. ;)

I don't like ketone smell. Sick/sweet to me.

DoesntMatter
02-03-08, 06:23 AM
It's likely called a ketone because the functional carbon experiences similar oxidation as a ketone

Junket
04-03-08, 06:39 AM
And so is he.

He's giving me the run around about the pay he owes me for the last two days because he's mad that I left so abruptly.

To tell the truth, I don't think the 90 bucks is worth the stress, considering my new job is so much better, even though it's the same amount of pay and I get taxes taken out this time around. Have I mentioned I was stolen by the electrician he hired? He doesn't know this because the electrician wanted to stay on good terms with Bennett.

Meh.

Junket
05-03-08, 06:58 AM
He finally coughed it up.

Gigabitch
05-03-08, 07:02 AM
Good. Withholding someone's pay is just wrong.