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17-07-08, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by shh!  Men who can speak foreign languages are a giant turn-on.  So are breasts 
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17-07-08, 05:02 AM
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| | | LOL, I was waiting for DM's explanation about how atom bombs also work.
The energy is there boobaa, there's actually a LOT of energy stored at the atomic level. Its difference from chemical energy, tho, which is what DM described. Conservation of energy is a basic physics law in this universe (so far, anyway). It would be a HUGE deal if it wasn't, lol.
I think the issue w/electric motors (vs. fuel cells) is one of heat production. There's a LOT of wasted energy/heat with EMs. | |
17-07-08, 05:16 AM
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| | | wait a minute...are fuel cells basically "water batteries" or "gas tanks" ? For some reason I've always associated them with...lol, come to think of it, I haven't thought about them at all.
I'm getting the idea that they're basically hydrogen storage or something? except, a water-powered car...where do they fit in with that? I suppose I should read up on this stuff if I wanna follow along, lol. | |
17-07-08, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Aegis I'm getting the idea that they're basically hydrogen storage or something? except, a water-powered car...where do they fit in with that? I suppose I should read up on this stuff if I wanna follow along, lol. The basic outline for a fuel cell is for it to use some fuel source and oxidize it with O2 to generate electricity. Hydrogen can be used, so can alcohols
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Last edited by DoesntMatter : 18-07-08 at 04:41 AM.
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17-07-08, 05:54 AM
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| | | Why use hydrogen or water?
Why not use an outlet?
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17-07-08, 05:57 AM
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| | | Why not use you Fras? I wouldn't mind riding you to work
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17-07-08, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Frasbee Why use hydrogen or water?
Why not use an outlet? Hydrogen blows up, so its more fun?
I'm trying to imagine all these cars w/electric cords, all plugged in, crisscrossing everywhere.
I think its a portability issue, Fras. You'd need power stations at defined intervals for outlets. Fine in a city, perhaps, but not for longer distances?
Don't expect detailed answers from me on this; I'm no engineer. | |
18-07-08, 04:54 AM
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| | | OK boobaa, so let me spell this out for you in a more condensed form because apparently your little brain can't handle more than that. Electrolyzing water has a free energy change. That free energy change is the negative of the free energy change that accompanies the reverse reaction. These free energy changes can be related to the potential difference of some electrochemical cell, the work it can do, as well as the heat exchanged in a combustion reaction, the work that can be done in that combustion reaction, and the entropy changes for that reaction
All the identities you need to know are:
ΔG° = -nFE°cell = -w(work, electric) = ΔH° - TΔS° = (q + w) - TΔS°
Maybe NOW you can see that in an electrochemical reaction, the entirety of a free energy change can be used as work, but in a combustion reaction, energy is lost as heat
And you're still right? You STILL think you're right??
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18-07-08, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter Boobaa you really should take a basic chemistry class sometime. I haven’t taken physical chemistry or inorganic chemistry yet and that deals largely with problems like this, but all you need is a first year chem. course
Electrolyzing water, 2H2O(l) --> 2H2(g) + O2(g), has a negative E°cell value, which means it absorbs a ΔG° = -nFE°cell where n = moles of electrons and F = Faradays constant which is Coulomb charge / mole of electrons. The reverse reaction of this is what is used in fuel cells, and it yields a negative ΔG° value which means free energy is released (free energy is basically the energy capable of doing work). This negative ΔG° is equal to the negative of the work that can be done by the cell. Using electrical energy to electrolyze water and then combusting it will yield LESS energy than it took to make the hydrogen and oxygen gases because more energy will be lost as heat that is not capable of doing work. The entire free energy change ΔG from an electrochemical process can be converted to mechanical work. During combustion the related equated is ΔG = ΔH - TΔS, where ΔH = q + w where q is heat and w is work. The terms "q" and "-TΔS" both reduce the usable mechanical work to something lower than a straight up electrochemical reaction I see you are still on school textbooks. have you ever heard about super electrolysis? However, there is even speculation that Meyers method is based on exact voltage and not electrolysis itself.
In case you are interested,here is the original video of the inventor:
It appears hes engine produces large amounts of browns gas, so this is not a normal electrolysis. One liter of tap water can produce 1860 liters of HHO or Browns gas. Actually it seems that Meyer never claims his engine running on pure electrolysis.
So technically you were right on the old terms, but wrong on the Meyers engine part.
Also, here is some more in terms of water powered cars: http://waterpoweredcar.com/s1r9a9m9_water_car.pdf
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Last edited by boobaa : 18-07-08 at 05:24 AM.
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18-07-08, 06:20 AM
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| | For crissakes, DM, why are you on such an ego-trip about who's right?
We are discussing an IDEA here, and a potentially wide-scope one. You remind me of those pedantic scientists who can't see shit of a big concept for getting bogged down in the details. Ppl like you slow progress down.  | |
18-07-08, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded For crissakes, DM, why are you on such an ego-trip about who's right?
We are discussing an IDEA here, and a potentially wide-scope one. You remind me of those pedantic scientists who can't see shit of a big concept for getting bogged down in the details. Ppl like you slow progress down. Why you ask? Because boobaa is factually incorrect. But now that they claim the process isn't based on electrolysis (thank God), I'll go back and take a look at this more seriously
And no, people like me don't slow down progress. (Although I'm sure you would like it if I did because it probably upsets you to see a patriotic American interested in the sciences) I'm receptive to new ideas as long as they aren't science fiction and based in something. Things like studying the photosystems of plants to develop better methods of extracting solar energy, and finding better carriers of hydrogen in fuel cells, both problems in physical chemistry and computational chemistry
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Last edited by DoesntMatter : 18-07-08 at 09:51 AM.
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18-07-08, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded You remind me of those pedantic scientists who can't see shit of a big concept for getting bogged down in the details. The DETAILS of a problem, Indi, are where you find whether something is possible or not. Basically someone had this grandiose idea of running a car on water, which sure, might be possible. But not the way that was discussed with electrolysis. Looking at the DETAILS of the problem showed this. Try something else
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Last edited by DoesntMatter : 18-07-08 at 09:48 AM.
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18-07-08, 09:50 AM
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| | | OK, looking at the details FURTHER, this wasn't even an electrolysis reaction. Guys, if we're gonna be talking about technical things, let's please use the right terminology so we don't have to prove things that have already been proven 3 million times over. I'll watch the video now and see what they say
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18-07-08, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DoesntMatter The DETAILS of a problem, Indi, are where you find whether something is possible or not. Basically someone had this grandiose idea of running a car on water, which sure, might be possible. But not the way that was discussed with electrolysis. Looking at the DETAILS of the problem showed this. Try something else Sometimes, DM, I forget how young and stupid you can be. But thanks for lecturing the lecturer, lol. | | Loveforum Breaktime | | |  | Loveforum also recommend - Green tea - Help in weight loss and decrease rate of getting cancer.
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