Inner Game

[GrkScorp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Only-virgins

Wait, that is all great and stuff but it doesn't help. I'm gonna see her tomorrow and don't know what to say!

Well, I know this is going to sound cliche', but try and give what i'm about to say some thought..

There are no "magic" words, lines, or stories that you're going to tell her to make her fall in love with you.. Now, since that's the case.. it doesn't make sense to feel this pressure of "what should I say to her?".. Honestly.. just be able to talk.. have "moxie".. and have a normal/natural/just-the-way-you-are state of mind..

Voice Tone: (work-out) Make a small little speech about how it takes energy to break bonds, and how energy is released when bonds are formed.. write this speech out, go into a little detail about potential energy.. keep it simple.. about a paragraph or two.. Type it up, and start to say it to someone (a friend, or the wall).. Keep saying it.. and try and notice how you're feeling, the tone and quality of your voice.. the speed and the pace.. the rhythm.. everything.. and as you notice these things, and get more smooth and natural at it.. try and notice how comfortable you feel when you're talking about such a neutral subject.. to such a neutral audience (your friend, a wall, etc).. and in all honesty.. when you're talking with "her", just rest easy knowing that nobody is judging you.. seriously.. just like your friend, or the wall..

When you get bored of your speech.. try saying "I pledge allegiance to the flag".. the whole thing.. over and over again.. And get used to your normal, relaxed, care-free, all natural voice..

What do you talk about?

- Anything

Seriously.. you can talk about anything.. Milton, classical mythology, art history, toasters, anything.. anything.. ANYTHING..

I would sit here, telling you some stories to have in mind, what to memorize.. but all of that is fake.. don't memorize anything.. start off with a "hi".. and take it from there.. talk about whatever comes your way.. talk about it naturally.. and don't sit on the same subject for too long.. switch often.. only go back on topics if she asks you to.. and talk with your natural voice quality..

Keep your conscious mind clear, there's no thinking.. there's just doing.. there's just feeling..

- And if it doesn't happen exactly the way you want it to.. that's ok.. and i'll tell you why.. because you're growing.. it's a learning experience.. the best thing that can possibly happen, is you doing something wrong.. and you'll learn to not do it next time..

When you look at it that way OV, you can only either gain a relationship the way you like it (depending where you want to take it).. or a learning experience.. either way.. I hope you realize that you win both ways..

And with that in mind.. the only thing you should remember, besides your natural voice quality is.. there's no thinking.. there's just doing..

PS. If you find this the least bit helpful.. I always listen to Cat Stevens "The First Cut is the Deepest" just before I go out to talk to "her".. I close my eyes and sing along.. loud.. until i'm laughing.. smiling.. completely comfortable, up-beat, and ready to go out..

Best of luck OV, and hey.. remember.. just have fun..

[GrkScorp]

Moxie Tips & Pointers:

- Moxie takes practice, just like calibration.. think of it like conversational calibration.. the ability to instinctively take what you're handed, (even if it's nothing) and turn it into an interesting, fun, funny, emotionally stimulating conversation.. Moxie is also the ability to keep the conversation going (which does NOT mean talking about the same subject/topic forever and ever until the end of time).. but being able to feely/smoothly flow from topic to topic, and adding multiple layers to the conversation.. (not a single thread, but multiple threads)

Examples:

- Bad:

You: So, what do you do?
Her: What do you mean?
You: Like, what's your major?
Her: Film & Media Studies
You: Oh! (pause) What is that?
You: Really? Do you like it?
Her: Blah blah
You: (Now what?)

You: Hey, what kind of dog is that?
Her: It's a Yorkie
You: It's so cute, i've never seen those before
Her: Yeah, I got it at ____ for my ____
You: What's the little guy's name?
Her: _____
You: What kind of dog food do you feed it?
Her _____
You: (Starting to realize you can't keep begging for dear life on the same conversational thread)

These bad examples have several things in common.. The first is.. (THIS IS IMPORTANT) they try too hard to establish comfort and rapport.. How? Simple.. they ask questions.. far too many.. Do you remember being at some party when you were younger.. where you have old people come up to you that you really don't care much about.. What's you name? How old are you? What do you want to be when you grow up? Do you like your school? Blah blah.. Yeah, that's exactly the vibe you're going to be creating if you go into interview-mode.. so stay clear of the million questions.. Secondly, they fail to branch out new threads from what little they have to work with.. but more importantly; they fail to create new ones alltogether! Without this, the conversation will die out very quickly..

- Good:

You: Do you believe in rating people on a scale of 1-10, just on looks?
Her: No (I mean, she could say yes, but if you can work with a no, you can work with a yes)
You: Well, I don't.. but you know, this was something I was talking about with some friends of mine recently.. and you'd be suprised how "deep" such a "shallow" subject is.. But more than that.. I think scales like that, are much harder on girls than they are on guys..
Her: I think it's pretty much the same (Again, if you can work with this answer, you can work with better ones)
You: Well, if you think about it.. all the different industries out there, marketing to girls.. cosmetics, beauty, fashion, nutrition, diet, fitness, you name it.. from a very early age.. girls are under so much pressure to meet these "ideal" standards.. and if they don't.. they feel ugly..
Her: Well, I think the same goes for guys (Once again, if you can work with this answer, you can work with "Yeah, I agree with that")
You: I don't know.. When we were talking about it, guys just don't care.. they're not as affected as girls are.. because they just don't really have the same pressure on them.. Looks matter, but for a guy, they really don't matter that much.. for a girl though, it's not a matter of being shallow or not.. she's living in a society that puts all this pressure on her day after day about looks..

We can go on forever, and that's kind of the point.. You don't have to talk about this (just an example from a recent thread, that in real-life, could have easily drifted into something like that conversation).. the actual topic is not important.. but here's what is..

- Multiple layers/threads in the conversation: Notice, you very quickly build up the ability to talk about the 1-10 scale, your other friends, the pressure girls have to deal with and guys just don't understand, the different industries and their unfair and unethical tactics, and even transition into giving each other ratings on the scale (ladies first, and judge accordingly).. Think of it like options.. you can take the conversation several ways.. constantly giving each option some attention.. jumping around.. back and forth.. what you're saying is interesting, fun, funny.. but you're never talking about it for too long for it to get dull & boring.. you're not affraid to move on to other stuff.. becaues you always have things to talk about.. and you can transition smoothly.. it's just casual conversation.. not some effort to impress her with how interesting your stories/views are.. and that's the beauty of moxie..

- Statements, not Questions: When you make statements, and not questions.. you are comming off as assertive, in control, secure, and comfortable.. NOT rapport/comfort seeking.. You also never let go of the option to keep talking.. If you ask a question and she doesn't quite give the answer you were looking for.. you're going to have a hard time picking back up.. but with statements.. you ALWAYS LEAD THE CONVERSATION..

- Letting Statements Hang: This is her green-light, open-chance to give her opinion/view on something.. in effect, to open up.. to get more involved.. and feel like she's finishing the thought you were throwing out there.. this is something friends do, which is why it's a nice and subtle comfort-building element.. when you're both on the same "wavelength" (or at least, feel as if you are).. there's more of a connection.. and obviously more comfort..

- Strong Frame: No, i'm not talking about frame-control here.. The fact that you are making statements, and are leading the conversation, means that you are in control of the conversation, and the interaction.. between the two of you.. you're in control.. in the lead.. When she's "allowed" to speak and give her view/opinion while "you're talking".. she feels good about being part of that frame.. and when you're "accepting" of her.. slowly.. via the conversation.. she's effectively having a great time.. with you.. and it get's rationlized as (OV, is just really really fun to talk to.. you know that if you're talking with him, you'll NEVER run out of things to talk about.. and he's always interesting and fun.. and funny sometimes).. all of a sudden, YOU (not your conversation) are "fun, funny, interesting, emotionally stimulating".. all because of moxie..

[GrkScorp]

Think of the dating market as a real estate market, with buyers and sellers.. who have money and homes to offer.. this market will clear at one point.. hopefully.. won't it?

- Wrong market structure: This is the market where YOU take on the role of the buyer.. and SHE takes on the role of the seller.. You go around looking desperately to find any homes that are for sale.. and of the ones that are, you may or may not be interested.. but there's no "price" listed.. so you approach the owners.. and make an offer.. They simply don't sell.. You keep throwing money their way and making offers which they continue to reject.. as you and other buyers do this.. and as the seller keeps rejecting, all that has happened in effect is that SHE now thinks "wow, the price of my home is worth so much above market; i'm going to hang on to it, g-d knows how much I can get".. Leaving you without the house, and looking like an idiot wasting so much time and money to make higher and higher offers.. (Sound familiar? Typical guy model)

- Right market structure: This is the market where YOU take on the role of the seller.. and SHE is the buyer.. I want you to notice first of all, what this means.. You are exchanging goods, but YOU are getting the raw end of the deal.. and she knows it.. A dollar today is NOT as valuable as a dollar in the future.. So her "money" today, will not have the same "purchasing power" in the furture.. as it gets old, in time, inflation will de-value it.. and it will not be able to attract.. cough cough.. buy the same home it can today.. in the future.. But your home resists this effect.. it simply doesn't lose that value over time.. So the first thing YOU do, is let the world know that your house is for sale.. no mention of price.. just that it's for sale.. at first She pretends not to notice, she wants to see how desperate you are, if you're going to chase after her to let her know how "for sale" it is.. but you don't.. you just passively display it to the world that it's for sale.. this great house.. that seems to be having an "open house" every so often.. and everyone seems to love it.. so now she comes in.. pretends not to be interested.. and will test to see how sure you are of the quality and value of your home.. "The roof is how OLD? Does it have central AC? Who was the previous owner? This room isn't BIG ENOUGH..".. when she realizes that you're unaffected because you're secure about your home.. it first bothers her.. but then she realizes that this is all she knows how to do.. so she eventually stops as her tactics get a little repetitive.. (you don't let her walk around the house forever, practically living there, without even paying rent, for free, you have to tell her to leave at one point, and let her feel that she's not welcome back after a couple of times if she's not serious about leaving an offer).. it may take some time.. but you'll start to pull offers from her.. (she'll try and get you to name a price, but you're not playing by her rules.. this is your house, your rules, and you're still waiting for an offer).. she makes one.. a low one.. then you talk again.. and still she continues to act disinterested, trying to get you to tell her a price.. but you don't.. eventually.. (when you know she's interested, and she knows you have other buyers interested).. she will make a higher offer.. and you may choose to accept or reject that offer.. or negotiate a higher one.. and you can keep doing this until you both settle on a price.. (market price).. but you're not looking for "cash-only".. you're looking for a "like-kind exchange" (the most romantic section of the Internal Revenue Code, Sec. 1031).. through conversation, you realize that she has like-kind property (an other house of her own).. at this point (but not prior, and not initially), YOU will be QUALIFYING her house to see if you are interested in it.. if you're NOT, you can take the cash (sex only).. if you ARE, you can go through with a like-kind exchange.. (a long-term relationship)

Remember, LOOKS are MONEY.. CHARACTER & PERSONALITY is the HOUSE.. but let's be conservative, and let's put YOUR looks aside.. let's just focus on your house.. you're going to have it up for sale.. not desperate to sell.. you're happy.. getting offers.. until you get something interesting.. But you're NOT looking for MONEY.. because it will be worth sh*t in due time.. Take a look at your mother, and your grandmother.. that's where the value of MONEY is headed.. you're looking for a HOUSE.. so you're just pulling offers from different buyers.. not interested in the MONEY they're offering.. while the overall VALUE of the offer matters, you would like the majority of that VALUE to be from the HOUSE, and not from the MONEY.. so this complex sequence, allows you to discover a HOUSE you like, then look at the total VALUE.. and see if you still want to go through with the like-kind-exchange.. It also allows you to get FAIR MARKET VALUE for your HOUSE.. (otherwise, you're shooting offers to sellers who are dreaming and thinking that their hut is some palace worth millions.. that their house comes at "too high a price" one no one can afford..).. As explained earlier in this thread.. YOU have the power to do this.. so go do it!

[IndiReloaded]

What's the worse thing that can happen, OV?

Imagine that, and then realize that probably won't happen. Relax & try to be yourself. Smile lots, you'll do fine hun.

[misombra]

this may or may not help but i remember this from a communication class i took.

trust and rapport begins with small disclosures on each persons part, moving onto bigger disclosures.

for example in the beginning of relationships people usually start off by revealing things about themselves. ("i have a dog, his name is blah blah blah.")

person 1: small disclosure
person2: equally small disclosure.
person 1: a little more information...
person 2: a little more information...

and after a little time the things that get disclosed are more intimate and personal.

thing is both people need to be willing to disclose the same amount of info. you can't reveal something to somebody who's not willing to reveal themselves to you. you have to keep the information about the same.

i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

[GrkScorp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by misombra

i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

Please do! Really great points.. keep 'em comming mis..

What's great about rapport & comfort building is that it paves the way for a strong sense of connection with people (more importantly, when they feel that towards you).. "people, not just exclusive to women, this applies to everyone"

- Same Language: I'm not talking about English.. But people have their own unique models of being aware of the world.. (Visual, Auditory, Kino).. Personally, I get along much better and also feel that sense of connection with Kino people, because i'm Kino myself.. You may feel that connection with a friend of yours, and chances are, he/she is either (V,A,K) just like you.. Learn to listen.. for phrases that give away this information.. "I see what you're saying, I hear you, You could feel it in the person's voice, it was so sunny outside today, it was so quiet outside today, it was so warm outside today".. Try and keep tally inside your head, there's usually a dominant model everyone has.. the first one to count up to 3 wins

- Implicit connection: The words "we, us, our" imply that the two of you share a level of connection perhaps greater than that of a common stranger.. Use them during conversation, but casually.. "I'm sure our parents had it much harder than us, we have it easy".. Notice how it's also a weak lock-in tool.. "So, where are we going?" is more likely to get the two of you leaving together than "Where are you going now?"

- Trance words & phrases: People have their own lingo.. and it's ususally the result of their social circle.. But they feel more comfortable with people who understand and speak that lingo.. because in effect, that lingo is the language they understand most.. Look out for phrases and words used over and over again by a person, and make it part of your vocabulary, put priority in those words! And use them during conversation..

- Verbal Mirroring: Similarly, people are more comfortable with their own rate, tone, pitch, pace, and rhythm of voice.. So try and blend your voice halfway to their voice, and you'll notice how they start to match your voice.. then that mirroring takes place, there's immediately a sense of comfort..

- Non-Verbal Mirroring: Is she lying back, well.. transition slowly into lying back over the course of 2 minutes.. leaning towards you? Well, likewise, do the same over the course of 2 minutes.. Is she playing with her glass? Maybe she's nervous.. start to "unconsciously" play with your glass aswell, and you're sending the message to her that you're feeling the same way.. Non-verbal mirroring is powerful.. You can go as far as matching breathing, movement frequency, and duration of eye contact until your eyes are almost glued to eachother.. Tracey Cox calls this "toffee eyes", where it can be hard to look away, and you may feel as if there's some sticky-ness or friction as you try and move your eyes away from looking at the other person, because unconsciously, you don't want to look away.. The biggest form of non-verbal mirroring is (kino).. that's right, touching.. you touch, she touches back, and as comfort and familiarity to touch grows, and your compliance threasholds get higher, touching can get a little bit "hotter"

- Acceptance: Fact of life, people like others who like them.. but I feel this needs a little clarification.. people like others who like them, for as long as those others aren't (needy, desperate, creepy, pushy, etc).. In short, we like people who like us, but have no devious intentions, who don't want anything from us.. So the best way to think about this, is "acceptance".. We like people who are accepting of us, and we feel like us for who we are, not like they're TRYING to like us, or TRYING to make us feel liked.. but at the same time, are not judgemental or "too good" to talk to us..

- Modesty: "I don't mean to brag, but.. (bragging)" does not count as being modest.. Let's face it.. everyone is different.. some people are creative, others are analytical, others are clumsy, others are athletic, etc.. And in between all that, we all have things we're "better" at, and things we're not.. We KNOW this, it's not news to us! But we don't like people who remind us constantly and shove it in our face as a means of maintaining the status of their ego sky-high.. This is why, when around people you want to establish comfort with, do NOT mention your success, or abilities, or talents.. it's show-offy and makes them uncomfortable, simply because you raise the bar too high.. Let them feel comfortable around you, and discover all of that on their own as THEY take the initiative to dig for that information.. "You never told me you had a Masters! How much was your GPA! You work for who! Wow! How come you didn't tell me?" All of a sudden, through their own digging, they feel more comfortable around you, because they unsonsciously come to realize that you're not the type of person to make them feel little around you.. and at the same time, they're standing next to this great person who never makes them feel "lesser".. that's powerful..

[Mishanya]

Quote:

Originally Posted by misombra

i could go more into this if you'd like. i found it to be really interesting when i was learning about it and it helped in my social interactions.

Yeh miso, tell us more

[misombra]

okay so you know some people who just say too much stuff right away you know?

person 1: i have a dog named sabrina.
person 2: my mother died in a freak, water basketing weaving accident.

whoa person 2, slow down a little. too much info. would you trust a person who disclosed too much without getting as much back? i wouldn't. i would think they were weird and the whole thing would be out.

the trick is probably to disclose just a little more than the other person and see if they disclose a little something to you.

person 1: i have a dog named sabrina.
person 2: i have a dog named al. how old is your dog?
person 1: she's 2. how old is your dog?
person 2: 4. how did you get your dog?
person 1: funny story cause blah blah blah.........................

[Mishanya]

Thanks Miso

What happens if all the conversations flow smoothly, but you're not getting those signals to take it a notch further? What do you recommend as the next step when you've built a rapport, but unclear where to go from there (you want to be subtle)?

[misombra]

if you're not getting those signals then you should give them. ask them a question and encourage them to disclose something.

you could also disclose something about yourself, leaving the other person more comfortable to disclose something to you.

[Mishanya]

By a notch further I actually meant to take conversation somewhere else, like dinner (Without being obvious, i.e. if it's a no to leave a door open for another safe attempt somewhere down the line)

[misombra]

sorry dear. leap of faith thing. i don't have the secret to get a girl to have dinner with you. i was just trying to help ov a little with his interaction. he probably won't care though cause he doesn't listen to me.

[IndiReloaded]

Quote:

Originally Posted by misombra

okay so you know some people who just say too much stuff right away you know?

the trick is probably to disclose just a little more than the other person and see if they disclose a little something to you.

This is good advice for conversation & growing relationships.

I seem to remember Nomas posting something about gradually increasing intimacy that ran along the same lines? Mbe in the archives someplace? Don't remember if that was on this forum tho.